bird
Well Oiled
You know, sometimes you just don’t want things to end
The Tale of Vintage Don and a 1948 Willys pickup
- Thread starter Vintage Don
- Start date
As happy as I am for you about the new CJ, I was a little disappointed because it means you're going to be in the shop for another year or two instead of out driving your truck and posting great trip reports.
I wouldn't count on that Carter. With Don's flair for storytelling I think he can make a drive to Medina Hardware an interesting read.As happy as I am for you about the new CJ, I was a little disappointed because it means you're going to be in the shop for another year or two instead of out driving your truck and posting great trip reports.
Derrick
Sharpest Tool
It doesn't have to Don, I know of a perfect truck to keep you busy. I'd even be willing to cover the cost of the parts for it if that's what it takes to keep you going. Oh and so everyone else has some good reading. Just spitballing ideas here
bird
Well Oiled
Get in line
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Let's get back to work on this Timken Clamshell rear end - I gotta at least get something written here. It keeps getting too late each evening for me to take an hour and post something worthwhile.
(No idea why that keeps happening.... )
Picking up where we left off, we next had a conversation about proper axle bearing grease. Then I got all "Jeep-nerdy" about dates and factory markings for a minute -
March 6, 2020:
"... Found some more dates as I've been cleaning things up. On the Pinion shaft. Appears to be: " CM 13 " on the top, then clearly " 9 48" below that. There is no " 1 " so it means " Sept. 1948 " I would conclude.
EVERYTHING on the truck has been dated August or September 1948.
On the axle housing, same date and correct Part Number for the Timken.
And then another blob of (the same) yellow paint which I take to be an Inspection mark. This one right on top of the right side spring perch. It would fall between the big U-bolts when assembled. Probably a spring / rear suspension inspection (?).
This matches the yellow paint on what I concluded was a gas tank inspection on the Frame (below). It would be right under the filler neck and then covered by the bed skirt when the bed went on. "
< There was also some of that yellow on the front axle housing. Gotta be a factory thing. >
Then I was back to trying to understand how to properly put together the axle. (I love to laugh at myself when I read my self struggling for comprehension..... hahaha) Later on March 6 -
"... I must be missing something obvious here. I've been reading this paragraph over and over, from the Instructions @JABJEEP sent me. It's making my head hurt.... @Big Dan, have you been here? Anybody that's built one of these?
It says, basically - "put the pinion assembly in. Put the halves of the diff together. And now that it's ASSEMBLED - AND ALL CLOSED UP - now, check the Backlash......The last sentence. Huh???
So how do I check the backlash, when I can no longer SEE the ring gear??? I'm not there yet, but I will be - and I'm gonna need to understand how this is possible. "
Jabjeep felt my pain -
"... I wonder if they mean by putting the dial indicator on the yoke? Does seem impossible to do it the normal way, but the radius of where you measure will impact the reading. very confusing. They don't show a picture of the process either, which is unusual. "
There followed a lot of very good dialogue about how in the world to measure this backlash without being able to see or touch what you're supposed to measure. Shims behind the carrier bearing cups was suggested as a possible way to correct it - but we still didn't know how to MEASURE it first....
March 8, 2020:
"... Thanks for the continued brain-storming here!
There were no shims behind either cup when they (finally) came out.
It definitely does NOT sound like fun to be changing shims behind those carrier cups! Remember, I had to weld a bolt across them to get them out. That would be kind of a nightmare to go together and apart a few times trying to shim that rascal. Ugh.
I notice that The Book does NOT mention shimming to change the pattern or backlash. It just has that language about being a matched set, and no adjustment. It implies (but doesn't actually SAY) that when you're out of spec, go get a new set of gears...
I'm really amazed that they give us zero instructions about how to measure the backlash. If it is necessary - or possible - to go through the fill hole, it certainly seems like that would have been worth a mention!
I have spent a ridiculous amount of time the past couple days trying to get these housings totally clean and ready to paint. They have been scrubbed and rubbed on with every solvent known to man. I am finally ready to mask and paint today - we have some nice warm sunny weather. That's today's mission. Then start actually building it. Lunch is over, and I'm headed back out there to mask off the pinion and all the openings. "
And then - as (almost) always happens - someone on the Forum here started to "draw back the curtain" so we could see a path forward.
@Jon offered up -
".. I have a Timken in a W O truck, and 2 timken axels for a White M3 scout car, the scout car has a good military repair manual showing the procedure for overhauling. I remember seeing the axel half is held vertically when worked on, and they have a set up body that is essentially a top half of the axel with steel sections in the clam shell cut out around the dif, still allowing you to get your hands in. I will have a look in the workshop for the book and read it again. "
But I didn't really focus on what that might really mean yet.... it was the Key - but we didn't know it yet. I missed the point....
I was still worrying about making them pretty -
March 9, 2020:
"... I agree, I've found that they're easier to work with standing vertical. I broke down and ordered a bearing cup driver that goes up to 3.5". Couldn't find a satisfactory way to beat those big ones in. Got paint on the housings yesterday. (Yes, I know they're supposed to be black. I went dark cast iron, because it will match what I did in the front, and because I just like the look better. You can see all the details much better, black kind of blanks it all out.)
No, no, no, (slightly) younger Vintage Don! Yeah, sure - they're pretty now - but LISTEN TO WHAT JON SAID!!
Thankfully, Jon tried to tell me / us again -
.
(No idea why that keeps happening.... )
Picking up where we left off, we next had a conversation about proper axle bearing grease. Then I got all "Jeep-nerdy" about dates and factory markings for a minute -
March 6, 2020:
"... Found some more dates as I've been cleaning things up. On the Pinion shaft. Appears to be: " CM 13 " on the top, then clearly " 9 48" below that. There is no " 1 " so it means " Sept. 1948 " I would conclude.
EVERYTHING on the truck has been dated August or September 1948.
On the axle housing, same date and correct Part Number for the Timken.
And then another blob of (the same) yellow paint which I take to be an Inspection mark. This one right on top of the right side spring perch. It would fall between the big U-bolts when assembled. Probably a spring / rear suspension inspection (?).
This matches the yellow paint on what I concluded was a gas tank inspection on the Frame (below). It would be right under the filler neck and then covered by the bed skirt when the bed went on. "
< There was also some of that yellow on the front axle housing. Gotta be a factory thing. >
Then I was back to trying to understand how to properly put together the axle. (I love to laugh at myself when I read my self struggling for comprehension..... hahaha) Later on March 6 -
"... I must be missing something obvious here. I've been reading this paragraph over and over, from the Instructions @JABJEEP sent me. It's making my head hurt.... @Big Dan, have you been here? Anybody that's built one of these?
It says, basically - "put the pinion assembly in. Put the halves of the diff together. And now that it's ASSEMBLED - AND ALL CLOSED UP - now, check the Backlash......The last sentence. Huh???
So how do I check the backlash, when I can no longer SEE the ring gear??? I'm not there yet, but I will be - and I'm gonna need to understand how this is possible. "
Jabjeep felt my pain -
"... I wonder if they mean by putting the dial indicator on the yoke? Does seem impossible to do it the normal way, but the radius of where you measure will impact the reading. very confusing. They don't show a picture of the process either, which is unusual. "
There followed a lot of very good dialogue about how in the world to measure this backlash without being able to see or touch what you're supposed to measure. Shims behind the carrier bearing cups was suggested as a possible way to correct it - but we still didn't know how to MEASURE it first....
March 8, 2020:
"... Thanks for the continued brain-storming here!
There were no shims behind either cup when they (finally) came out.
It definitely does NOT sound like fun to be changing shims behind those carrier cups! Remember, I had to weld a bolt across them to get them out. That would be kind of a nightmare to go together and apart a few times trying to shim that rascal. Ugh.
I notice that The Book does NOT mention shimming to change the pattern or backlash. It just has that language about being a matched set, and no adjustment. It implies (but doesn't actually SAY) that when you're out of spec, go get a new set of gears...
I'm really amazed that they give us zero instructions about how to measure the backlash. If it is necessary - or possible - to go through the fill hole, it certainly seems like that would have been worth a mention!
I have spent a ridiculous amount of time the past couple days trying to get these housings totally clean and ready to paint. They have been scrubbed and rubbed on with every solvent known to man. I am finally ready to mask and paint today - we have some nice warm sunny weather. That's today's mission. Then start actually building it. Lunch is over, and I'm headed back out there to mask off the pinion and all the openings. "
And then - as (almost) always happens - someone on the Forum here started to "draw back the curtain" so we could see a path forward.
@Jon offered up -
".. I have a Timken in a W O truck, and 2 timken axels for a White M3 scout car, the scout car has a good military repair manual showing the procedure for overhauling. I remember seeing the axel half is held vertically when worked on, and they have a set up body that is essentially a top half of the axel with steel sections in the clam shell cut out around the dif, still allowing you to get your hands in. I will have a look in the workshop for the book and read it again. "
But I didn't really focus on what that might really mean yet.... it was the Key - but we didn't know it yet. I missed the point....
I was still worrying about making them pretty -
March 9, 2020:
"... I agree, I've found that they're easier to work with standing vertical. I broke down and ordered a bearing cup driver that goes up to 3.5". Couldn't find a satisfactory way to beat those big ones in. Got paint on the housings yesterday. (Yes, I know they're supposed to be black. I went dark cast iron, because it will match what I did in the front, and because I just like the look better. You can see all the details much better, black kind of blanks it all out.)
No, no, no, (slightly) younger Vintage Don! Yeah, sure - they're pretty now - but LISTEN TO WHAT JON SAID!!
Thankfully, Jon tried to tell me / us again -
.
Last edited:
Boggs38
Bigger Hammer
What a cliffhanger...
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
And then, the clouds lifted, and we saw clearly!
@Jon came through, and posted up 5 pages of SOLID GOLD! The missing, key information on how to actually DO the job that the Willys books simply did not tell us. In fact, they told us to do a series of things that was patently impossible.
(I just spent 40 minutes re-downloading and formatting these pages to make it work here in this post - so if you're ever rebuilding a Timken - you owed me a beer! haha)
This information came from a "Scout Car M3" book (per Jon), dated 1942 - which used the same Timken axle.
So like everything else in Life - once somebody shows you or explains it, it all becomes so simple......
March 9, 2020:
" ... Jon - this is BEAUTIFUL!!!! Thank you, thank you! So they're saying to just upend the (right side) axle housing half - which has the pinion in it - and set the diff gear assembly down in it. And (I assume) gravity will hold it in place well enough to check backlash! That actually makes sense.... And I can easily do the other check it talks about with the gears being flush, etc.
This shows us that The Manual is simply WRONG in telling us to "completely reassemble" the thing, and somehow check backlash. Which is about impossible.
And they say to move the pinion in and out a bit with the thickness of the plate in front of it. This also makes sense! And it explains why I found two gaskets under that when I pulled it apart.
PROGRESS!
Meanwhile, I got an "email notice" that the last bearing I was waiting on is cancelled.... They didn't really have one.... so I just ordered another. That'll slow me down a few more days. So I'll work on the fasteners, and other small bits to have everything ready for assembly when that bearing shows up. All the rest are here now. Also waiting on the big cup driver I ordered. And can't do the backlash check until I get the bearing cup driver anyway. "
@JABJEEP echoed the sentiment, and got all excited -
"Awesome! Thank you Jon!!!!!!!
OMG! (Oh My Gosh!) check out steps #87 to 93! To change the backlash you gotta decrease the thickness of one race and add shims to the opposite side! Before I retired I had access to a surface grinder, but OMG!!!! How many folks have one of those sitting idle in the corner of the shop!?
Edit: OK. I settled down. These are precision bearings and require precision machining methods. I guess you could just take one of the races and have an exact amount removed from the backside, say 0.045" and have an equal amount of shims ready to go and just swap sides from there. Perfectly doable."
I was somewhat more pragmatic -
"... Yeah, it says to work on the race. Still, not exactly a 3 minute adjustment!
I'm liking my original pattern better and better.... "
There was a long conversation about heating and cooling bearings and other components, to help make them go together. And I was asked about my Bearing Driver mentioned above. And we talked about cleaning "new" bearings that might be 50 years old in the box.
And then I was finally ready for re-assembly - and for the first time I posted visibly for all to see when I became totally OCD insane....
and @scramboleer grokked it -
@Jon came through, and posted up 5 pages of SOLID GOLD! The missing, key information on how to actually DO the job that the Willys books simply did not tell us. In fact, they told us to do a series of things that was patently impossible.
(I just spent 40 minutes re-downloading and formatting these pages to make it work here in this post - so if you're ever rebuilding a Timken - you owed me a beer! haha)
This information came from a "Scout Car M3" book (per Jon), dated 1942 - which used the same Timken axle.
So like everything else in Life - once somebody shows you or explains it, it all becomes so simple......
March 9, 2020:
" ... Jon - this is BEAUTIFUL!!!! Thank you, thank you! So they're saying to just upend the (right side) axle housing half - which has the pinion in it - and set the diff gear assembly down in it. And (I assume) gravity will hold it in place well enough to check backlash! That actually makes sense.... And I can easily do the other check it talks about with the gears being flush, etc.
This shows us that The Manual is simply WRONG in telling us to "completely reassemble" the thing, and somehow check backlash. Which is about impossible.
And they say to move the pinion in and out a bit with the thickness of the plate in front of it. This also makes sense! And it explains why I found two gaskets under that when I pulled it apart.
PROGRESS!
Meanwhile, I got an "email notice" that the last bearing I was waiting on is cancelled.... They didn't really have one.... so I just ordered another. That'll slow me down a few more days. So I'll work on the fasteners, and other small bits to have everything ready for assembly when that bearing shows up. All the rest are here now. Also waiting on the big cup driver I ordered. And can't do the backlash check until I get the bearing cup driver anyway. "
@JABJEEP echoed the sentiment, and got all excited -
"Awesome! Thank you Jon!!!!!!!
OMG! (Oh My Gosh!) check out steps #87 to 93! To change the backlash you gotta decrease the thickness of one race and add shims to the opposite side! Before I retired I had access to a surface grinder, but OMG!!!! How many folks have one of those sitting idle in the corner of the shop!?
Edit: OK. I settled down. These are precision bearings and require precision machining methods. I guess you could just take one of the races and have an exact amount removed from the backside, say 0.045" and have an equal amount of shims ready to go and just swap sides from there. Perfectly doable."
I was somewhat more pragmatic -
"... Yeah, it says to work on the race. Still, not exactly a 3 minute adjustment!
I'm liking my original pattern better and better.... "
There was a long conversation about heating and cooling bearings and other components, to help make them go together. And I was asked about my Bearing Driver mentioned above. And we talked about cleaning "new" bearings that might be 50 years old in the box.
And then I was finally ready for re-assembly - and for the first time I posted visibly for all to see when I became totally OCD insane....
and @scramboleer grokked it -
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bird
Well Oiled
Sweet!
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Yeah, as the kids say - "That took a minute." I spent a couple hours that day laying that all out exactly accurately, every fastener, washer, bearing, etc. But it had some value in getting it all firmly in my head. And it looked cool! Haha
I can imagine some cool Willys themed posters based upon your Timken and T90 assemblies. I forget if you did the same for your L head.
51delivery
Sharpest Tool
Looks really cool all layer out like that.
Sure is heck easier to read Don's layout than some of the diagrams in the service manual. It's great to have both.
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
I think I might feel a "Double Update Evening" coming on here!
This first, next posting was kinda like how things have been going here in "Real Time" - a sideways kinda day, no real forward progress, but stuff you gotta do, anyway.
March 12, 2020:
"... Today was one of those days where I just kind of "went sideways" all day, and ended up about as far ahead as when I started.... A Dentist appointment (always a good time) wasted most of the morning. And the usual other things that "Daily Life" presents, which prevent us from doing what we actually WANT to do.
But I managed to get a couple hours in the Shop late. I WANTED to start getting this thing assembled! I had planned to start by trying to adjust the Pinion - get the pre-load set on those bearings.
But I don't have a low-profile 1-7/8" open end or box wrench, for twisting the inside of the two lock nuts..... The illustration in the Manual makes it look like a big beefy wrench. But there's not ROOM for that. The nut is only maybe 1/4" thick. You can use a big crescent on the outer nut, but not that inside one. It needs to be real narrow profile.
So I picked up some leftover scraps of 12 gauge flat stock from making the bed support joists previously, and I made me one. It was more challenging that I thought it would be, getting it to fit the hex just right. Makes you appreciate those wrenches we just grab and use - and never give a thought to what our caveman ancestors had to go through! And the welder decided to tie a knot in its wire feed, other little side issues.
But it does fit, and it turns the nut fine. Still struggling with how to hold the pinion from rotating while I torque down on it....
But I was quickly running out of time, so I goofed around a little bit and cleaned up my quick-and-dirty weld job, and even put a hole in the handle to hang it up later! And went in to dinner. Maybe I'll get something accomplished tomorrow! "
And so that "in turn" (get it? haha) made forward progress possible the NEXT day -
March 13, 2020:
"... OK, the pinion is set. (Yay!!)
"... I had struggled to hold the pinion from rotating while I tried to torque the adjusting nuts. I finally realized I could simply put the yoke on, which is keyed. Duh. And hold it in place with the "yoke wrench" I had made to work on the front axle previously. Then the pinion can't rotate.... Duh again.
So this allowed adjustment, using the wrench I made yesterday. It's finicky - the slightest movement dramatically changes the rotational torque.
I got slightly different results depending on the direction of rotation. The target spec is 12 to 18 in-lbs.
I finally found a sweet spot that stayed between 10 and 20 in-lbs averaging both directions, with full rotations. So tightened down the lock nut.
Then you have to bend over the tabs on the locking washer between the two nuts. Not easy! No room to hit it or bend on it, and it's pretty stiff. Not pretty, but I got there, without altering the rotational torque readings.
So after lunch, I'll try out the new Bearing Cup Driver, and get ready for a trial assembly and see how the gears line up and mesh. "
It does feel good to make progress - especially when most of the tools you are using are tools that you MADE. I was starting to feel like @JABJEEP himself. Well, almost.. (the big difference being - he actually knows what he's doing, of course.... haha)
This first, next posting was kinda like how things have been going here in "Real Time" - a sideways kinda day, no real forward progress, but stuff you gotta do, anyway.
March 12, 2020:
"... Today was one of those days where I just kind of "went sideways" all day, and ended up about as far ahead as when I started.... A Dentist appointment (always a good time) wasted most of the morning. And the usual other things that "Daily Life" presents, which prevent us from doing what we actually WANT to do.
But I managed to get a couple hours in the Shop late. I WANTED to start getting this thing assembled! I had planned to start by trying to adjust the Pinion - get the pre-load set on those bearings.
But I don't have a low-profile 1-7/8" open end or box wrench, for twisting the inside of the two lock nuts..... The illustration in the Manual makes it look like a big beefy wrench. But there's not ROOM for that. The nut is only maybe 1/4" thick. You can use a big crescent on the outer nut, but not that inside one. It needs to be real narrow profile.
So I picked up some leftover scraps of 12 gauge flat stock from making the bed support joists previously, and I made me one. It was more challenging that I thought it would be, getting it to fit the hex just right. Makes you appreciate those wrenches we just grab and use - and never give a thought to what our caveman ancestors had to go through! And the welder decided to tie a knot in its wire feed, other little side issues.
But it does fit, and it turns the nut fine. Still struggling with how to hold the pinion from rotating while I torque down on it....
But I was quickly running out of time, so I goofed around a little bit and cleaned up my quick-and-dirty weld job, and even put a hole in the handle to hang it up later! And went in to dinner. Maybe I'll get something accomplished tomorrow! "
And so that "in turn" (get it? haha) made forward progress possible the NEXT day -
March 13, 2020:
"... OK, the pinion is set. (Yay!!)
"... I had struggled to hold the pinion from rotating while I tried to torque the adjusting nuts. I finally realized I could simply put the yoke on, which is keyed. Duh. And hold it in place with the "yoke wrench" I had made to work on the front axle previously. Then the pinion can't rotate.... Duh again.
So this allowed adjustment, using the wrench I made yesterday. It's finicky - the slightest movement dramatically changes the rotational torque.
I got slightly different results depending on the direction of rotation. The target spec is 12 to 18 in-lbs.
I finally found a sweet spot that stayed between 10 and 20 in-lbs averaging both directions, with full rotations. So tightened down the lock nut.
Then you have to bend over the tabs on the locking washer between the two nuts. Not easy! No room to hit it or bend on it, and it's pretty stiff. Not pretty, but I got there, without altering the rotational torque readings.
So after lunch, I'll try out the new Bearing Cup Driver, and get ready for a trial assembly and see how the gears line up and mesh. "
It does feel good to make progress - especially when most of the tools you are using are tools that you MADE. I was starting to feel like @JABJEEP himself. Well, almost.. (the big difference being - he actually knows what he's doing, of course.... haha)
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
< Double Update - Part 2 - with an Embedded Video! (@Stakebed lives for these!) >
So then I got thinking too much....
March 13, 2020:
"... Here's a question... on the outer axle seals. There is a "front" and a "back" to these. And there's the old "the spring / open side goes in facing the oil" rule of thumb.
OK, but these have oil/grease on BOTH sides. They go at the outer end of the axle housing, just inboard of the wheel bearing - which is in a cavity with a grease fitting. So they might be trying to keep the differential oil out of the wheel bearing grease cavity. OR - they might be trying to keep the wheel bearing grease out of the axle housing to stay at the wheel bearing????
I can convince myself in both directions. I'm mostly thinking they want to keep the diff oil out of the wheel bearing. That is, install with the open side of the seal toward the pumpkin.
What say ye? "
Ye answered - and the general consensus was - as I had thought too - "keep the diff gear oil out of the wheel bearing." JabJeep was concerned that the Zerk at the wheel bearing would allow too much pressure / force in that cavity and potentially blow out this seal. We also discussed using "two way" seals, which is kinda what the originals appeared to be - but nobody has any... I pressed on, but questions continued....
"... Sounds like the opinions tend to agree to put it open side toward the pumpkin. And I called Carl Walck and that's what he thought, too. So it shall be! Yes, the originals were (I thought) non-directional, below. Felt or leather. I couldn't find any, and Walcks sold me the new ones.
JABJeep, there's a "drain" or bypass at the bottom for the grease in the wheel bearing cavity, so you couldn't build any pressure. "
I was pretty worried about this next issue -
"... Next question: what's a typical interference figure between bearing bore and the shaft you need to beat it onto? In this case, the carrier bearing onto the carrier. Bearing ID is 2.000". The receiving shaft is 2.004". Seems mighty damn tight! Came off HARD, too. I plan to freeze the gearset, and cook the bearings in some oil, but thought I'd ask here. "
Jabjeep had a Rule to help decide -
".. My machine repair instructor was great with "rules of thumb". In fact, his rules have proven true over and over during my 40 year career. He said that a 0.001"/inch (one thousandth of an inch per inch of diameter) interference fit was the norm. With that "rule" you are indeed tight. Are both sides the same? Normal tolerances might mean that it was just barely in spec, but if they both measure up at a 0.004" interference fit I'd assume it's designed to be that tight. "
I immediately replied -
"..Both sides mic'ed at the 2.004", yes.
(And then we could have that crazy conversation about "so is that .004" interference, or is it .002" on each side?" haha) "
But he immediately blew me out of the water with that old one -
" No, we couldn't. The "rule" was "in diameter". Just because 12 volts is twice 6 volts doesn't mean you can go down the two-fer path with radii and diameters! "
OK, just keep moving forward, Vintage Don!
"... spoil sport...
Some definite progress was made today. As above, the Pinion is now all set up and locked down, that was before lunch. Afternoon saw the new carrier bearing cups installed in the axle housing on each side, and I got the new axle seals installed, as discussed above. I also got all the new bearings all washed up in clean mineral spirits, ready to install now.
Tomorrow's Mission - get those super tight carrier bearings installed. That will allow a mock-up assembly of the two halves, and see where the gears meet and maybe take another pattern, see what it looks like.
Some expressed interest in that adjustable bearing cup driver tool, which I did use to install the big carrier cups. Here's a quick look at it in a little video (18 seconds). It got the job done.
And then the next day - Good News!
March 14, 2020:
"... Carrier bearings installed. I polished the shaft ends on the carrier. Emery cloth, doing "shoe shine" style, got them down to .003" interference versus .004" anyway.
Then I put the carrier gear set in the freezer for 3 hours before lunch. And borrowed a soup pan from The Bride, and cooked the new bearings until too hot to handle.
We both then (very rapidly) carried them to the Shop where I had everything ready. They popped right on with a couple of whacks!
So next I'll do a trial fit-up, into the axle housings. First I'll see if I can get a meaningful backlash reading, per Jon's manual, then take a pattern."
Hey Hey! We're getting there!
But what will that backlash reading look like, though? And will the Pattern still be solid???????
Stay tuned for the next exciting installment of the Timken Clamshell adventure!
So then I got thinking too much....
March 13, 2020:
"... Here's a question... on the outer axle seals. There is a "front" and a "back" to these. And there's the old "the spring / open side goes in facing the oil" rule of thumb.
OK, but these have oil/grease on BOTH sides. They go at the outer end of the axle housing, just inboard of the wheel bearing - which is in a cavity with a grease fitting. So they might be trying to keep the differential oil out of the wheel bearing grease cavity. OR - they might be trying to keep the wheel bearing grease out of the axle housing to stay at the wheel bearing????
I can convince myself in both directions. I'm mostly thinking they want to keep the diff oil out of the wheel bearing. That is, install with the open side of the seal toward the pumpkin.
What say ye? "
Ye answered - and the general consensus was - as I had thought too - "keep the diff gear oil out of the wheel bearing." JabJeep was concerned that the Zerk at the wheel bearing would allow too much pressure / force in that cavity and potentially blow out this seal. We also discussed using "two way" seals, which is kinda what the originals appeared to be - but nobody has any... I pressed on, but questions continued....
"... Sounds like the opinions tend to agree to put it open side toward the pumpkin. And I called Carl Walck and that's what he thought, too. So it shall be! Yes, the originals were (I thought) non-directional, below. Felt or leather. I couldn't find any, and Walcks sold me the new ones.
JABJeep, there's a "drain" or bypass at the bottom for the grease in the wheel bearing cavity, so you couldn't build any pressure. "
I was pretty worried about this next issue -
"... Next question: what's a typical interference figure between bearing bore and the shaft you need to beat it onto? In this case, the carrier bearing onto the carrier. Bearing ID is 2.000". The receiving shaft is 2.004". Seems mighty damn tight! Came off HARD, too. I plan to freeze the gearset, and cook the bearings in some oil, but thought I'd ask here. "
Jabjeep had a Rule to help decide -
".. My machine repair instructor was great with "rules of thumb". In fact, his rules have proven true over and over during my 40 year career. He said that a 0.001"/inch (one thousandth of an inch per inch of diameter) interference fit was the norm. With that "rule" you are indeed tight. Are both sides the same? Normal tolerances might mean that it was just barely in spec, but if they both measure up at a 0.004" interference fit I'd assume it's designed to be that tight. "
I immediately replied -
"..Both sides mic'ed at the 2.004", yes.
(And then we could have that crazy conversation about "so is that .004" interference, or is it .002" on each side?" haha) "
But he immediately blew me out of the water with that old one -
" No, we couldn't. The "rule" was "in diameter". Just because 12 volts is twice 6 volts doesn't mean you can go down the two-fer path with radii and diameters! "
OK, just keep moving forward, Vintage Don!
"... spoil sport...
Some definite progress was made today. As above, the Pinion is now all set up and locked down, that was before lunch. Afternoon saw the new carrier bearing cups installed in the axle housing on each side, and I got the new axle seals installed, as discussed above. I also got all the new bearings all washed up in clean mineral spirits, ready to install now.
Tomorrow's Mission - get those super tight carrier bearings installed. That will allow a mock-up assembly of the two halves, and see where the gears meet and maybe take another pattern, see what it looks like.
Some expressed interest in that adjustable bearing cup driver tool, which I did use to install the big carrier cups. Here's a quick look at it in a little video (18 seconds). It got the job done.
And then the next day - Good News!
March 14, 2020:
"... Carrier bearings installed. I polished the shaft ends on the carrier. Emery cloth, doing "shoe shine" style, got them down to .003" interference versus .004" anyway.
Then I put the carrier gear set in the freezer for 3 hours before lunch. And borrowed a soup pan from The Bride, and cooked the new bearings until too hot to handle.
We both then (very rapidly) carried them to the Shop where I had everything ready. They popped right on with a couple of whacks!
So next I'll do a trial fit-up, into the axle housings. First I'll see if I can get a meaningful backlash reading, per Jon's manual, then take a pattern."
Hey Hey! We're getting there!
But what will that backlash reading look like, though? And will the Pattern still be solid???????
Stay tuned for the next exciting installment of the Timken Clamshell adventure!
Last edited:
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Let's get this thing assembled, already..... (with a very brief video for @Stakebed again!)
So as above, the Magic Words had come from @Jon and his old Manual - which actually told us how to do what the Willys Manual did not. So using that new knowledge -
March 14, 2020:
"... OK, using the method Jon shared from the old Manual, I have measured backlash. It seems to be a valid measurement. First, I had to customize the dial indicator probe -
so I could "reach around the corner" and make contact with the ring gear tooth.
I'm getting .012 to .014-ish. The zero point bounces around, and it's hard to not jiggle the pinion a little. First few tries showed me. 011. So spec is .004 to .018. I'm calling it good.
Here's a 5 second video of the effort -
(OK, it wasn't much of a video....)
I have also reworked my fixture setup that holds the axle housings, so I can put this thing together by myself.
Going to try to get a pattern next. "
And I did! Just a short while later, the same afternoon -
"... I believe we have a good, solid pattern!!!!!!
Feedback is very welcome, because (don't tell anybody) I only vaguely know what the hell I'm doing.....
I rotated 2 revolutions in both directions. (This time, I didn't use too much of the yellow paint, too. Better.) I used the original gasket as a spacer.
Here's some patterns: ( <--- I'm only putting up two of them here.... you're welcome! haha)
My modified assembly fixture worked out pretty good. I was able to easily get it together and apart by myself pretty quickly.
The new bearings and cups lined up and seated fine, and seemed happy enough while turning things. And looked normal after pulling it back apart.
Nice to see it in one piece again. For a minute, anyway. "
Well, my primary mentor - @JABJEEP (sometimes known as The Lone Ranger, as I recall....) said simply -
".. Excellent! Get that thing under the truck!"
BUT - alas - just when you thought I was almost DONE with this little Timken project - I discovered I had still yet another procedure to perform that I didn't quite understand....
March 15, 2020:
"...That's what I was hoping you'd say! I'll hopefully get it put together today but not under the truck. Gotta build the backing plates, brakes, etc etc. on it. And get the Frame and new rear springs truly ready to receive it for keeps.
But the next thing that has me scratching my head is shimming the axles, to set endplay. I understand I'm going to shim under the backing plate. I understand it doesn't matter which side I put them on; and I've got the spec.
What I DON'T understand is what I'm measuring, where I'm measuring it at, and how I'm measuring it...."
JabJeep - " You're measuring endplay at the end of the axle with your dial indicator. You should actually be able to push and pull the shaft the 0.004" or whatever the spec is, by hand, or maybe put a hub, or the nut on it and pry against that. "
And I got thinking too much again....
".. Oh..... well, that seems pretty straight forward. I believe I can handle that. Thank you.
OK, next thing - how does that (tapered bore) wheel bearing "know how far" to slide on the axle? I was thinking about this yesterday as I polished the carrier shafts to put those bearings on. Doing the old shoe-shine move. I got thinking I should probably do that same process to the axles before I installed those bearings too. Then I remembered they're tapered. If I polished the axle, they would slide on further. But if the axle NEEDS polished, they won't slide on far enough....
Any thoughts on rubbing a little assembly lube on the carrier bearings and pinion components as I button up that pumpkin? It's gonna be a while before it starts spinning next....
Thinking further.... it'll be fine. The pumpkin will be filled with gear oil before it starts spinning significantly, after all - and it will then do what it's supposed to do. No different than when a vehicle is parked for 2 weeks or however long, and everything has drained down.
(Im just kinda talking to myself here..... hmmm.... ) "
Well, he and others talked me down. We proceeded.....
"... Ok, all good here then. Yes, I oiled the bearings, and ran an oily finger around the races. Also squeezed a bit into the planetary gears and pinion areas just before marrying it up.
I will definitely hand-pack the wheel bearings. By the way, some playing around this morning showed that the wheel bearings "know" how far to slide onto the axle shafts. At least visually (since there's nothing to measure) they appear to be in the same spot as the old ones were.
The long, flimsy gasket was bitchy to work with. (I have spared you the long conversation about how to find paper of the correct thickness (it matters, and it's not readily available anywhere)) for this gasket. I ended up making it out of a manilla envlope). I put a very light finger of gasket goop all around both side's surfaces, which helped glue down the gasket for assembly. So it's married together now.
Time to install wheel bearings, and see what we have for axle end-play."
Then I wandered into that quagmire of conversation about the "right" gear oil to put in this wonderful old rearend. Bottom line - yes, there's some yellow metal in there - use GL-4, not the much more widely available GL-5 stuff.
Still later that same day, The "Ides of March" -
"... I've made it to the part where I measure and shim, to set the axle end-play. Spec is .003" to .007". Got things snugged up, and the first reading (using the old shim pack which I have previously meticulously cleaned up) is luckily showing me .030" end-play. I say "luckily" because that means I need to REMOVE shims. I can do that. If I had needed to ADD shims, I don't have any more, I'd be looking for some before I could finish this.
Kept playing with it, decided it really said .033". Took it apart, pulled out three .010 shims, back together. Now it was at zero. Took it apart, pulled out the only .005 and added back one of the .010's. Put it together and it reads .006". I'm calling it done. But I have to unbolt again to install the outer seals and gaskets.
Then the pinion seal and cover, various small parts, and on to building the brakes.
Everything I know to look at is now "in spec." ... "
Got the pinion seal and cap installed, the breather, brake line brackets. We'll see if I get any time tomorrow. It's getting close! "
.
So as above, the Magic Words had come from @Jon and his old Manual - which actually told us how to do what the Willys Manual did not. So using that new knowledge -
March 14, 2020:
"... OK, using the method Jon shared from the old Manual, I have measured backlash. It seems to be a valid measurement. First, I had to customize the dial indicator probe -
so I could "reach around the corner" and make contact with the ring gear tooth.
I'm getting .012 to .014-ish. The zero point bounces around, and it's hard to not jiggle the pinion a little. First few tries showed me. 011. So spec is .004 to .018. I'm calling it good.
Here's a 5 second video of the effort -
(OK, it wasn't much of a video....)
I have also reworked my fixture setup that holds the axle housings, so I can put this thing together by myself.
Going to try to get a pattern next. "
And I did! Just a short while later, the same afternoon -
"... I believe we have a good, solid pattern!!!!!!
Feedback is very welcome, because (don't tell anybody) I only vaguely know what the hell I'm doing.....
I rotated 2 revolutions in both directions. (This time, I didn't use too much of the yellow paint, too. Better.) I used the original gasket as a spacer.
Here's some patterns: ( <--- I'm only putting up two of them here.... you're welcome! haha)
My modified assembly fixture worked out pretty good. I was able to easily get it together and apart by myself pretty quickly.
The new bearings and cups lined up and seated fine, and seemed happy enough while turning things. And looked normal after pulling it back apart.
Nice to see it in one piece again. For a minute, anyway. "
Well, my primary mentor - @JABJEEP (sometimes known as The Lone Ranger, as I recall....) said simply -
".. Excellent! Get that thing under the truck!"
BUT - alas - just when you thought I was almost DONE with this little Timken project - I discovered I had still yet another procedure to perform that I didn't quite understand....
March 15, 2020:
"...That's what I was hoping you'd say! I'll hopefully get it put together today but not under the truck. Gotta build the backing plates, brakes, etc etc. on it. And get the Frame and new rear springs truly ready to receive it for keeps.
But the next thing that has me scratching my head is shimming the axles, to set endplay. I understand I'm going to shim under the backing plate. I understand it doesn't matter which side I put them on; and I've got the spec.
What I DON'T understand is what I'm measuring, where I'm measuring it at, and how I'm measuring it...."
JabJeep - " You're measuring endplay at the end of the axle with your dial indicator. You should actually be able to push and pull the shaft the 0.004" or whatever the spec is, by hand, or maybe put a hub, or the nut on it and pry against that. "
And I got thinking too much again....
".. Oh..... well, that seems pretty straight forward. I believe I can handle that. Thank you.
OK, next thing - how does that (tapered bore) wheel bearing "know how far" to slide on the axle? I was thinking about this yesterday as I polished the carrier shafts to put those bearings on. Doing the old shoe-shine move. I got thinking I should probably do that same process to the axles before I installed those bearings too. Then I remembered they're tapered. If I polished the axle, they would slide on further. But if the axle NEEDS polished, they won't slide on far enough....
Any thoughts on rubbing a little assembly lube on the carrier bearings and pinion components as I button up that pumpkin? It's gonna be a while before it starts spinning next....
Thinking further.... it'll be fine. The pumpkin will be filled with gear oil before it starts spinning significantly, after all - and it will then do what it's supposed to do. No different than when a vehicle is parked for 2 weeks or however long, and everything has drained down.
(Im just kinda talking to myself here..... hmmm.... ) "
Well, he and others talked me down. We proceeded.....
"... Ok, all good here then. Yes, I oiled the bearings, and ran an oily finger around the races. Also squeezed a bit into the planetary gears and pinion areas just before marrying it up.
I will definitely hand-pack the wheel bearings. By the way, some playing around this morning showed that the wheel bearings "know" how far to slide onto the axle shafts. At least visually (since there's nothing to measure) they appear to be in the same spot as the old ones were.
The long, flimsy gasket was bitchy to work with. (I have spared you the long conversation about how to find paper of the correct thickness (it matters, and it's not readily available anywhere)) for this gasket. I ended up making it out of a manilla envlope). I put a very light finger of gasket goop all around both side's surfaces, which helped glue down the gasket for assembly. So it's married together now.
Time to install wheel bearings, and see what we have for axle end-play."
Then I wandered into that quagmire of conversation about the "right" gear oil to put in this wonderful old rearend. Bottom line - yes, there's some yellow metal in there - use GL-4, not the much more widely available GL-5 stuff.
Still later that same day, The "Ides of March" -
"... I've made it to the part where I measure and shim, to set the axle end-play. Spec is .003" to .007". Got things snugged up, and the first reading (using the old shim pack which I have previously meticulously cleaned up) is luckily showing me .030" end-play. I say "luckily" because that means I need to REMOVE shims. I can do that. If I had needed to ADD shims, I don't have any more, I'd be looking for some before I could finish this.
Kept playing with it, decided it really said .033". Took it apart, pulled out three .010 shims, back together. Now it was at zero. Took it apart, pulled out the only .005 and added back one of the .010's. Put it together and it reads .006". I'm calling it done. But I have to unbolt again to install the outer seals and gaskets.
Then the pinion seal and cover, various small parts, and on to building the brakes.
Everything I know to look at is now "in spec." ... "
Got the pinion seal and cap installed, the breather, brake line brackets. We'll see if I get any time tomorrow. It's getting close! "
.
What a bear of a job!
Your tenacity in achieving perfection is always inspiring Don. It is so easy to say, close enough................
Beautiful work, Don! Thanks for the inspiration. This thread will be a valuable resource for many.
By the way, my wagon -- with the D44 rear end -- has leather inner seals, installed about 5 years ago. At that time, National was still making them. Not sure if they still do or not.
By the way, my wagon -- with the D44 rear end -- has leather inner seals, installed about 5 years ago. At that time, National was still making them. Not sure if they still do or not.