Oooooo, another episode of Game of Dons.
The Tale of Vintage Don and a 1948 Willys pickup
- Thread starter Vintage Don
- Start date
bird
Well Oiled
Ha ha! Another Season I hope
Sadly, I think this Game of Dons might be in it's last season but I'm hoping for a sequel.
bird
Well Oiled
OR a spin off!
- Sep 20, 2017
- 3,979
- First Name
- Jeff
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Pickup
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1955
- 1958
- 1962
I thought we all agreed that Don was going to buy and restore that fleetvan thing? Did we change our minds?
Only if bird can afford Don's hourly rate.
There was discussion about a CJ2a as well.
Gosh I'm sure Don is grateful we are all planning for his next project. We don't want him to get bored.
bird
Well Oiled
I’m in negotiations as we speak! Very complete and a roller with no drive train. Willys steering wheel horn button and all. The BIG question is that if I do get it do I get more practical and put in a little Chevy and an automatic OR keep it as fully Willys as I can. If the original power plant was still in it then there would be no question but since it is not ?????
- Sep 20, 2017
- 3,979
- First Name
- Jeff
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Pickup
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1955
- 1958
- 1962
Why are you asking us? Shouldn’t Don be the one to ask? After all, we did agree that he’s gonna do all the work, right? You know, for his own good!
- Sep 20, 2017
- 3,979
- First Name
- Jeff
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Pickup
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1955
- 1958
- 1962
BTW, if you do buy it, my first choice/vote would be to keep it stock. Probably less complicated and more likely to get it mobile under it’s own power that way (of course with a Willys 4-banger I use the term “power” in a figurative sense)!
- Sep 20, 2017
- 3,979
- First Name
- Jeff
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Pickup
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1955
- 1958
- 1962
Deleted, thought I saw something on my phone, but a bigger picture on my laptop answered it sorry.
Last edited:
Modadds
Bigger Hammer
Just remember its got to keep the patina, don’t want all that paint to go to waste that Don’s been stock piling!
bird
Well Oiled
Just a scrub and wipe down on the exterior for me just like my other vehicles for sure. I have NONE of Don’s patience, time or expertise either. Any body know of a solid Willys guy in San Diego please let me know. My main man Bernie can do it all But after finishing up my 48 truck we were going to jump right in on my 39 Ford pickup. I’ve been trying SO hard not to find another vehicle too but I just had to open up the link on this vehicle and now I’m captivated buy it. I’d rather not get it just to sit around for years till it can get worked on. I think its time is Now so we’ll see what happens
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Well, back to old Willa Dean here......
There was some general conversation about the state of the pattern. I was hugely encouraged - because @JABJEEP was encouraged! haha. To summarize the series of comments, his last one was:
" Yes, I do think that your analysis is the best guess. This isn't a hypoid gear set, but we can still "see" the actual contact pattern and make judgement calls based on that. If something were terribly wrong with the pattern at least we'd know before putting it in service. I think everything will be fine. "
Then the rest of the overall job pulled me away from the diff for a little while, but maybe it's relevant to stick it in here. Because this type of thing was / is typical of the project.
Feb. 19, 2020:
"... I have forced myself (with great difficulty! haha) to NOT work on the diff the past 2 afternoons. And tomorrow, too... Instead, I have returned to work on the Frame... The paint is well cured now, and I need to spend this time to totally finish it - sanding and "steel wooling" it, etc - knock down the shine. So that I can reattach all the little brackets, and bits and pieces cluttering up my work bench! Too many "almost finished" side jobs. I need to clear the decks, THEN focus on this axle build. Couple more days of that, maybe. "
Turned out it took a week. But, it also apparently gave me some time "to reflect" on what I was gonna do with this rear differential. A full week passed before my next posting about it. And it brought me to THE BIG QUESTION......
February 26, 2020:
"... OK, I definitely need some advice......
I've finished up most of the "loose ends" projects - the truck's Frame is finally all pretty again, the new rear wiring harness is kinda installed in it now, etc. Whew.
So - I'm back to staring at this Timken rear end. I've made the gaskets I'll need to put it back together. I still haven't ordered bearings and seals.
The new, used axle shaft came from Walck's - and it's fine, a perfect match.
Here's the argument that's going on inside my head... I'm really, really struggling to convince myself that it's actually a good idea to tear this pinion out of it..... Tearing it out of there is not an easy thing, obviously; but I've got the design of what I need to build (the puller set-up) to do the job, from Big Dan. It's do-able, of course.
But - with the pinion adjusting nut tightened back up, the Pinion truly rotates really nice and smooth. Silky smooth in fact, no catching or chattering at all. And as seen above, it gives a reasonable pattern.
On the other hand, it's clearly the original bearings in there (i.e, old). And you can't really SEE the inner ones without disassembly, to truly KNOW they're OK. But there was still gear oil, and the gears and all LOOK pretty good, and there was no metal shavings or bad things in there..
On the other, other hand - if I take it apart I have to do that process of turning down the end of the pinion, to fit a modern replacement bearing. And the whole thing with the riveted on bearing retainer cap, for that modification. Will all that go perfectly? Not to mention just getting the Pinion OUT and back in, beatin', bleedin' and cussin', no doubt...
I truly question if / when I go through all that work and expense, will I actually make it better? For that matter, will I even be able to make it as good as it SEEMS to be right now? haha. But it's a serious question...
It's not like I'm going to drive it to work 40,000 miles a year. But I DO want to be able to jump in it and go. Of course, if it started making noise, I could always pull it back out later and go into it and rebuild it.
You have to remember, the truck was parked for over 50 years.... I've never driven it - I've just been rebuilding each and every system for 2 years. I'm not afraid of the work and I don't really care about the expense of the bearings, etc. I'm just really not sure if it makes sense to tear it down and put it together. It ain't really very broke... How do I decide if it actually needs it or not?
I'm kind of leaning towards changing out the carrier bearings and races, the wheel bearings and races, obviously the seals - and then leaving that pinion alone and see what happens. I'm not selling out on doing the rebuild, just can't convince myself that it's called for, and don't know how to decide. What do you folks think???????? "
And of course I got many responses. Which is what I was hoping for....
@PTV - " Probably the old bearings are better made than the Chinese bearing you'll install. Even Timken bearings I've seen made in Thailand anymore.... "
(Which I agreed with, but also pointed out that the ones in there were 72 years old.)
JABJEEP was kinda playing both sides on this one: "Don, can the pinion seal be replaced without all the fuss of removing the pinion? Since I haven’t torn into one of these yet (my time is coming!) I don’t understand why you wouldn’t take it all apart and inspect the bearings but it sounds like others have. And they say it’s difficult or risky. Without knowing the risk my opinion is only a guess, but I gotta remind you that the pinion wears faster than the ring gear and the pinion bearings are smaller and wear faster than the carrier bearings that you want to replace. If the risk is minimal I would want to look at and probably replace all the bearings. If the risk of damage, and needing a bearing that no longer exists (requiring machining) is moderate then it would be prudent to only replace seals and “easily replaced” bearings and hope that 45 MPH with that little 4-banger will allow it to outlast your term as the caretaker of the vehicle. "
@Big Dan made a lot of sense with: "Go with your gut feeling this isn't your first rodeo. You have been messing with old vehicles for a long time. Worse case, you have to do it at a later date, best case you never have to. In my case the differential bearings were rusted badly, so it made sense for me to do the whole deal."
@Lookout Ranch didn't beat around the bush - "I say leave the pinion alone, Don. For the low miles this will see, it should be fine. Chances are it's good, submerged as it was in gear oil. And even if it's not, these almost always fail slowly with lots of advanced warning -- slight howl at first and getting louder over time -- so you can fix it at your leisure if necessary."
So you can begin to see pretty clearly which way I was leaning with my next answer here:
February 28, 2020:
"... All right, many thanks for these answers!
To reply to some of the above: JABJeep, in this diff, the Pinion bearings are almost as large as the carrier bearings. Ballparking it, outside dimension of the races, the pinion race is 3-1/8", and the carrier is under 3-1/2". But your point is well taken, the pinion has gone around 5.38 as many times as the ring gear! Although we can see a reasonable pattern and appearance. The pinion seal is real easy, it's in the outer housing, piece of cake for that.
Big Dan - even though I've been playing with old cars for about 50 years, building engines, bodies off the frame, and even painting them - I have never previously had the nerve to go INSIDE the diff.... I was always afraid of it. Been inside a few transmissions, but the front Dana 25 for this truck is my very first rebuild of a complete diff and axle. So it ain't my first rodeo, but I never rode the bull before! My gut is telling me to leave the pinion alone - it ain't broke..... (as far as I can tell anyway).
Lookout Ranch, that seems very reasonable, and matches up with what I'm thinking. The worse that can happen is, I have to take it back apart and do it later. It'd give me something to look forward to! haha
Here's what the original outermost, front pinion bearing looks like. It's the one that comes out real easy. This is after washing it off - and I realize you can't really SEE wear - but it's certainly not bad looking.... and hopefully / probably, the other bearings on the pinion shaft are in similar shape."
So what WILL Vintage Don decide to do????? Leave well enough alone, or break it open and maybe screw it up???
There was some general conversation about the state of the pattern. I was hugely encouraged - because @JABJEEP was encouraged! haha. To summarize the series of comments, his last one was:
" Yes, I do think that your analysis is the best guess. This isn't a hypoid gear set, but we can still "see" the actual contact pattern and make judgement calls based on that. If something were terribly wrong with the pattern at least we'd know before putting it in service. I think everything will be fine. "
Then the rest of the overall job pulled me away from the diff for a little while, but maybe it's relevant to stick it in here. Because this type of thing was / is typical of the project.
Feb. 19, 2020:
"... I have forced myself (with great difficulty! haha) to NOT work on the diff the past 2 afternoons. And tomorrow, too... Instead, I have returned to work on the Frame... The paint is well cured now, and I need to spend this time to totally finish it - sanding and "steel wooling" it, etc - knock down the shine. So that I can reattach all the little brackets, and bits and pieces cluttering up my work bench! Too many "almost finished" side jobs. I need to clear the decks, THEN focus on this axle build. Couple more days of that, maybe. "
Turned out it took a week. But, it also apparently gave me some time "to reflect" on what I was gonna do with this rear differential. A full week passed before my next posting about it. And it brought me to THE BIG QUESTION......
February 26, 2020:
"... OK, I definitely need some advice......
I've finished up most of the "loose ends" projects - the truck's Frame is finally all pretty again, the new rear wiring harness is kinda installed in it now, etc. Whew.
So - I'm back to staring at this Timken rear end. I've made the gaskets I'll need to put it back together. I still haven't ordered bearings and seals.
The new, used axle shaft came from Walck's - and it's fine, a perfect match.
Here's the argument that's going on inside my head... I'm really, really struggling to convince myself that it's actually a good idea to tear this pinion out of it..... Tearing it out of there is not an easy thing, obviously; but I've got the design of what I need to build (the puller set-up) to do the job, from Big Dan. It's do-able, of course.
But - with the pinion adjusting nut tightened back up, the Pinion truly rotates really nice and smooth. Silky smooth in fact, no catching or chattering at all. And as seen above, it gives a reasonable pattern.
On the other hand, it's clearly the original bearings in there (i.e, old). And you can't really SEE the inner ones without disassembly, to truly KNOW they're OK. But there was still gear oil, and the gears and all LOOK pretty good, and there was no metal shavings or bad things in there..
On the other, other hand - if I take it apart I have to do that process of turning down the end of the pinion, to fit a modern replacement bearing. And the whole thing with the riveted on bearing retainer cap, for that modification. Will all that go perfectly? Not to mention just getting the Pinion OUT and back in, beatin', bleedin' and cussin', no doubt...
I truly question if / when I go through all that work and expense, will I actually make it better? For that matter, will I even be able to make it as good as it SEEMS to be right now? haha. But it's a serious question...
It's not like I'm going to drive it to work 40,000 miles a year. But I DO want to be able to jump in it and go. Of course, if it started making noise, I could always pull it back out later and go into it and rebuild it.
You have to remember, the truck was parked for over 50 years.... I've never driven it - I've just been rebuilding each and every system for 2 years. I'm not afraid of the work and I don't really care about the expense of the bearings, etc. I'm just really not sure if it makes sense to tear it down and put it together. It ain't really very broke... How do I decide if it actually needs it or not?
I'm kind of leaning towards changing out the carrier bearings and races, the wheel bearings and races, obviously the seals - and then leaving that pinion alone and see what happens. I'm not selling out on doing the rebuild, just can't convince myself that it's called for, and don't know how to decide. What do you folks think???????? "
And of course I got many responses. Which is what I was hoping for....
@PTV - " Probably the old bearings are better made than the Chinese bearing you'll install. Even Timken bearings I've seen made in Thailand anymore.... "
(Which I agreed with, but also pointed out that the ones in there were 72 years old.)
JABJEEP was kinda playing both sides on this one: "Don, can the pinion seal be replaced without all the fuss of removing the pinion? Since I haven’t torn into one of these yet (my time is coming!) I don’t understand why you wouldn’t take it all apart and inspect the bearings but it sounds like others have. And they say it’s difficult or risky. Without knowing the risk my opinion is only a guess, but I gotta remind you that the pinion wears faster than the ring gear and the pinion bearings are smaller and wear faster than the carrier bearings that you want to replace. If the risk is minimal I would want to look at and probably replace all the bearings. If the risk of damage, and needing a bearing that no longer exists (requiring machining) is moderate then it would be prudent to only replace seals and “easily replaced” bearings and hope that 45 MPH with that little 4-banger will allow it to outlast your term as the caretaker of the vehicle. "
@Big Dan made a lot of sense with: "Go with your gut feeling this isn't your first rodeo. You have been messing with old vehicles for a long time. Worse case, you have to do it at a later date, best case you never have to. In my case the differential bearings were rusted badly, so it made sense for me to do the whole deal."
@Lookout Ranch didn't beat around the bush - "I say leave the pinion alone, Don. For the low miles this will see, it should be fine. Chances are it's good, submerged as it was in gear oil. And even if it's not, these almost always fail slowly with lots of advanced warning -- slight howl at first and getting louder over time -- so you can fix it at your leisure if necessary."
So you can begin to see pretty clearly which way I was leaning with my next answer here:
February 28, 2020:
"... All right, many thanks for these answers!
To reply to some of the above: JABJeep, in this diff, the Pinion bearings are almost as large as the carrier bearings. Ballparking it, outside dimension of the races, the pinion race is 3-1/8", and the carrier is under 3-1/2". But your point is well taken, the pinion has gone around 5.38 as many times as the ring gear! Although we can see a reasonable pattern and appearance. The pinion seal is real easy, it's in the outer housing, piece of cake for that.
Big Dan - even though I've been playing with old cars for about 50 years, building engines, bodies off the frame, and even painting them - I have never previously had the nerve to go INSIDE the diff.... I was always afraid of it. Been inside a few transmissions, but the front Dana 25 for this truck is my very first rebuild of a complete diff and axle. So it ain't my first rodeo, but I never rode the bull before! My gut is telling me to leave the pinion alone - it ain't broke..... (as far as I can tell anyway).
Lookout Ranch, that seems very reasonable, and matches up with what I'm thinking. The worse that can happen is, I have to take it back apart and do it later. It'd give me something to look forward to! haha
Here's what the original outermost, front pinion bearing looks like. It's the one that comes out real easy. This is after washing it off - and I realize you can't really SEE wear - but it's certainly not bad looking.... and hopefully / probably, the other bearings on the pinion shaft are in similar shape."
So what WILL Vintage Don decide to do????? Leave well enough alone, or break it open and maybe screw it up???
Last edited:
bird
Well Oiled
Go for it
As all this is after the fact, I sure hope you listened to Carter and left well enough alone.
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Turns out, I did.
I got another response from @Big Dan - on "Leap Day" Feb 29th - who said - "Gut feelings are hard to beat. I say run it. If the bearings in mine looked that good I wouldn't have changed them."
I think that was the one that 'tipped' me to just go with it. And I was genuinely concerned that I might actually make things WORSE, with machining the end of the pinion to fit the modern bearing - not to mention the pretty physical beating that you give stuff to get it apart and back together. So later that day, I committed.
"Thanks, Big Dan, I'm convinced now. I'm just going to replace the carrier bearings and races, and of course the wheel bearings and races. And all the seals. And clean up and adjust that pinion, and leave it alone - put this rascal back together, and make it pretty. And then we'll all just see what happens, but I think it'll be fine. Feels good to have a plan of action, finally!"
Then I was back with an update on March 3, 2020 - which lead very quickly to "getting stuck" on the next little problem area.
"... I continue to (slowly!) get things pulled apart - literally.
Got the wheel bearings off the axle shafts, got the seals out of the axle housings. Replaced the pinion seal in the little pinion "cap" piece. That original seal was really in there! Had to chisel him out.
Then moved on to the carrier bearings. They were kinda tough, too. Took all the brute force I could come up with to turn the breaker bar to finally pop them loose.
But I finally got 'em out.
This leaves only the cups for those carrier bearings - and they are inset into the inside opening (at the pumpkin) of those l-o-n-g axle shaft housings - and you have to try to get behind them from the OUTSIDE end.....
Have tried almost every trick I can think of to pop them out, but so far, they're still winning....... If you're not familiar, you gotta try to drive them out from the far away end of the long axle housing, working inside the housing of course - you're trying to knock a 'stuck' bearing cap out from two feet away, and there's only a tiny little piece of the edge showing that you're trying to apply a LOT of force to - with a half-assed crowbar rigged up, or whatever "Rube Goldberg meets MacGyver" idea you're trying to do......
Once I get them out (he said, confidently) then it's just installing new stuff and clean-up and back together."
Once again, the Forum here came to my rescue. This time, it was @51delivery who told me the secret:
".. If you run a couple of beads of weld in the cups, they'll shrink and come out really easy."
So I jumped on that idea....
"... Thanks, 51Delivery! I tried that right away. See below....
A big part of the problem is getting anything behind the inner lip of that bearing cup - to be able to apply any meaningful force on it with the hammer. I had ended up using an old steering column shaft. The length was good, and it let me put a big washer on the end where the steering wheel would go. At least then I could catch the lip. Sometimes.
And so I tried what 51Delivery suggested. But I still struggled to get solid blows on that lip - to actually move the race.
Then it hit me - if I'm welding on the race anyway - why not weld something on there to HIT! So I welded a bolt across the opening -
Which FINALLY gave me something to HIT! And it came right out. Well, after I welded it a few times so it would stick.
So then I went after the other side, and it came out on the first strike. I'm sure the heat from welding was obviously the "Right Answer."
I also learned that my nice comfy old Shop Shoes are no match for splashing molten steel while welding! (again) hahaha
< I still wear those socks, when their turn comes around in the sock rotation. And I think of that bearing race each time I pull them on.... >
So at that point, the differential was apart, as far as it was going to come apart. So, on -
March 5, 2020:
"... Since I got those carrier cups out, I've been steadily moving along here..... spent a chunk of time yesterday and got ALL the bearings, cups and seals coming. (I actually did all of that searching and ordering on my smart phone! was proud of myself). Boy, I've got stuff coming from all over the map - but I found each and every one I need.
Mostly, I bought NOS Timken stuff, old enough to be Made in the USA. It's out there, and doesn't cost any more than the chinese junk.
Found one, single "Made in USA" wheel bearing cup at the local auto parts -
So I'll have stuff arriving for the next few days. Found the axle and hub seals from Walcks - it turns out they are the same outer seals on a Timken rear axle as they are on the later Dana 53's. So they had them.
Yesterday afternoon and most of today, I worked on getting the housings ready to build. I had scraped and "rough cleaned" the outside of them earlier, so they were friendlier to work on for disassembly.
But now I plunged into making this -
Look like this -
Got to get them clean and ready for paint.
And of course I did it Old School - a drill (with a cord and plug - battery never dies!) and various wire brush wheels and then scrubbed with some kind of oven cleaner stuff. And lacquer thinner.
I'm superstitious about sandblasting stuff like this. Or internal engine parts. No matter how many times I clean it and blow it out, I'm always afraid there will be a pocket of sand I missed that will then eat up my new bearings. Besides, it's kinda cold outside to be sandblasting big stuff with the old outdoor blaster. These wouldn't fit in the cabinet.
And of course there are various places that make you crazy, where you just can't get in there to clean out. The orange-brown fossilized grease/dirt that's like concrete in every nook and cranny. (What's a "cranny" anyway?)
So I finish it up with the Dremel and its miniature wire brush wheels. Finally got all those hidden places cleaned up good enough. And so that's pretty much my whole day. Tomorrow, scrub with acid and then lacquer thinner again. Then soap and water. And they'll be ready to paint.
Then I'll 'super-clean' the insides - brake cleaner and air, over and over. Which of course will screw up the new paint on the outside. Which I'll worry about touching-up after the axle is all back together. Maybe a week or 10 days to go, waiting for stuff to come and then getting it put together. "
And @CSPIDY told me what a "cranny" is -
".. Cranny, small, narrow space or opening, a small break or slit. (Google is all knowing) "
Last edited:
Great report. You are about at the point in time that I joined the forum. Stuff will be familiar now.
pixman
Bigger Hammer
Poor Willa Dean! Poppa brought home a new Baby Brother, now nobody's paying any attention to HER!
bird
Well Oiled
They’ll get along just fine once they can both run and play with each other
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Hahaha - I really, really, really only meant to change the spark plugs.... Of course, now that CJ2A rabbit is running as fast as it can. Bunch of other nonsense keeps pulling me away from Willa Dean, too. And I'm SOOO close to finishing her. (Possible procrastination? Not wanting it to end? It's been a way of life for over 3 years...)
Headed to the Shop RIGHT NOW to work on Willa Dean.....