Steering Conversion Recommendations?

Andy FitzGibbon said:
It's worth noting that Tim's wagon has the bell crank (crossover) drag link, which improves steering geometry overall (and is an advantage that's also gained by converting to a more modern box).

At this point, since good new parts are mostly not available, the service required on most stock Ross boxes is closer to remanufacturing than rebuilding. You need to be resourceful and find a machine shop that can do the work. Even after remanufacturing, it's still an antiquated unit that was primarily used on lawn tractors, with a certain amount of slop that can't be adjusted out. The Ross manual states that "backlash in the end positions is normal and not objectionable".

I've also seen enough stress failures of 70-year-old steel and cast pieces to have some concerns about trusting them. It doesn't keep me from driving my wagon, but is something I think about, and is making me consider alternatives. From what I've seen, every option generally requires some custom work. Nothing is 100% bolt on.
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All true. I still think that the Ross box is adequate with a stock motor and stock tires. I think properly built and adjusted you have approx. 45*-55* straight ahead steering with minimal backlash.
 
templarknight1762 said:
My second problem with this is second only to the availability of parts for future repair/maintenance. It's other is that even a fully refurbished stock steering setup is still going to have play in it. I'd prefer to have a tighter more reliable steering setup for when I'm rolling 70mph down the road.
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templarknight1762 said:
Well depending on what research can give me, my future project is to bore out the engine a little and slap on a turbo. It would be nice not to have to shift out of overdrive to go up hills.
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Rolling down the road or n0t shifting out of overdrive on hills is a bit optimistic with a 226, turbo or not. I see that you only have 8 posts. Is this your 1st Willys?

Freeway speed steering is no problem. Plenty tight enough for that. It is parking lots that need the improvement.
 
cwdtmmrs said:
Rolling down the road or n0t shifting out of overdrive on hills is a bit optimistic with a 226, turbo or not. I see that you only have 8 posts. Is this your 1st Willys?

Freeway speed steering is no problem. Plenty tight enough for that. It is parking lots that need the improvement.
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This is my first willys yes. My Dad had one in High School and growing up it was always in pieces being worked on. Now I'm 30 and his is still sitting in a shed halfway fixed won't let me touch it so I got my own and am running it weekly around.
 
It sounds like maybe a frame swap to a newer Jeep might be what you’re looking for. I saw a “dirt every day” video where Fred and Dave put Fred’s wagon on a newer chassis.
 
Trlaketige said:
It sounds like maybe a frame swap to a newer Jeep might be what you’re looking for. I saw a “dirt every day” video where Fred and Dave put Fred’s wagon on a newer chassis.
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My Dad will be keeping his stock all around
Mine I am Restomodding but I don't want to do a frame swap either.
 
I've seen a suggestion from Tim / @timd32 and Scott / @wunderwillys in a previous post on the topic of getting a Ross steering box rebuilt (although I don't see this specifically called out on his web site) that Sal at vintagejeepers.com in Pennsylvania offers this service.

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Our mothers and our grandmothers managed to drive vehicles for decades that weren't equipped with power steering.

If you add in even just the littlest bit of forward or backward motion to a vehicle with properly working manual steering when cranking into or out of a parking space, just about anybody can turn that steering wheel!

Steering conversions are not for the faint of heart (or for those even moderately lacking of mechanical aptitude)...



(Caution: Uncle Tony's Garage alert!)

I realize you haven't stated that you intend to use this pick up as a daily driver, but there is still good food for thought in the video linked below.

A Beginners Guide To Choosing A Classic Car Or Truck for Use as a Daily Driver
Pay particular attention to what Tony has to say beginning about 4 minutes and 20 seconds in, and also at about 11 minutes and 58 seconds.
 
Joe B said:
I've seen a suggestion from Tim / @timd32 and Scott / @wunderwillys in a previous post on the topic of getting a Ross steering box rebuilt (although I don't see this specifically called out on his web site) that Sal at vintagejeepers.com in Pennsylvania offers this service.

View attachment 163523


Our mothers and our grandmothers managed to drive vehicles for decades that weren't equipped with power steering.

If you add in even just the littlest bit of forward or backward motion to a vehicle with properly working manual steering when cranking into or out of a parking space, just about anybody can turn that steering wheel!

Steering conversions are not for the faint of heart (or for those even moderately lacking of mechanical aptitude)...



(Caution: Uncle Tony's Garage alert!)

I realize you haven't stated that you intend to use this pick up as a daily driver, but there is still good food for thought in the video linked below.

A Beginners Guide To Choosing A Classic Car Or Truck for Use as a Daily Driver
Pay particular attention to what Tony has to say beginning about 4 minutes and 20 seconds in, and also at about 11 minutes and 58 seconds.
Click to expand...
Actually I do plan to damn near daily it. It's much only truck while I have another car and a motorcycle so if not one or the other then I'm taking the willys. Only truck too so anything requiring more than groceries is willys
 
Cool!
Matt, do you fit the cab okay? On Willys pick ups, taller guys typically start daydreaming about cab extensions about halfway through their first drives.

Think about the roads that you will be commonly traveling on. A conservative top "cruising" speed of a 226-equipped truck is somewhere between 55 and 60.

See the Willys Speed Calculator here:

Just guessing, but use 32" for your tire size, your "Axle Ratio" is probably 4.88:1, your "Transfer Case" is the 18, the transmission is the T90 (keep it in 3rd), and you either do or do not have the Warn Overdrive (option/add on). Set that to normal if not.

Good stuff in Rick Grover's text below the calculator. Worth reading.
 
Joe B said:
Cool!
Matt, do you fit the cab okay? On Willys pick ups, taller guys typically start daydreaming about cab extensions about halfway through their first drives.

Think about the roads that you will be commonly traveling on. A conservative top "cruising" speed of a 226-equipped truck is somewhere between 55 and 60.

See the Willys Speed Calculator here:

Just guessing, but use 32" for your tire size, your "Axle Ratio" is probably 4.88:1, your "Transfer Case" is the 18, the transmission is the T90 (keep it in 3rd), and you either do or do not have the Warn Overdrive (option/add on). Set that to normal if not.

Good stuff in Rick Grover's text below the calculator. Worth reading.
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I actually just finished installing the Saturn Overdrive 2 days ago. I fit comfortably as I'm 5'11" standing tall but usually lose another inch or so slouching so the cab rides fine. My biggest concerns now are getting the steering sorted before I look at other restomods/ upgrades I can make to make it more easier to live with.
 
If I can just back up a bit and go back to the steering, I'd just like to ad my 2 cents on the subject of saginaw ps, and also the AA conversion kits. I installed saginaw in my wagon. I like it, but it also came with other problems, like quick steering. Too sensitive. Makes your sphincter suck to the seat at speed quick steering. And it costs a serious chunk of change to have the box gone thru and set up for good road feel. If you're limited in your metal fabrication skills, I'd avoid the temptation to do the saginaw conversion. AA adapter kits don't work in a wagon. At $650 only a few parts in their kit are needed, and I don't think you can buy them from AA individually, but I may be wrong there. It would make things a lot simpler if you could. The rest can be had from Borgesson. Then there's costs,(like steering u-joints.@ nearly 100 bucks a pop...need 3) fitment of pumps, hard metal lines coming out of the top of the box (adding to its overall height by about an inch or better.) All in all, while I enjoy the fruits of my labor, and it was labor intensive, if I had to do it all over again, probably wouldn't go saginaw ps......and in my defense, when I did my conversion, there was no Old Willys Forum or members to bounce ideas off of. So....FWIW
Like Joe B says, "It's not for the faint of heart".
 
Idaho Mark said:
If I can just back up a bit and go back to the steering, I'd just like to ad my 2 cents on the subject of saginaw ps, and also the AA conversion kits. I installed saginaw in my wagon. I like it, but it also came with other problems, like quick steering. Too sensitive. Makes your sphincter suck to the seat at speed quick steering. And it costs a serious chunk of change to have the box gone thru and set up for good road feel. If you're limited in your metal fabrication skills, I'd avoid the temptation to do the saginaw conversion. AA adapter kits don't work in a wagon. At $650 only a few parts in their kit are needed, and I don't think you can buy them from AA individually, but I may be wrong there. It would make things a lot simpler if you could. The rest can be had from Borgesson. Then there's costs,(like steering u-joints.@ nearly 100 bucks a pop...need 3) fitment of pumps, hard metal lines coming out of the top of the box (adding to its overall height by about an inch or better.) All in all, while I enjoy the fruits of my labor, and it was labor intensive, if I had to do it all over again, probably wouldn't go saginaw ps......and in my defense, when I did my conversion, there was no Old Willys Forum or members to bounce ideas off of. So....FWIW
Like Joe B says, "It's not for the faint of heart".
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Okay so not going Saginaw PS conversion then. Since I can't rebuild my factory box should I go with Herm The Overdrive Guys Manual Steering conversion? From my understanding there's no welding required. Anyone here have or know someone who has gone this route from Herm with a truck or wagon?
 
Idaho Mark said:
and I don't think you can buy them from AA individually, but I may be wrong there.
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Fwiw....you most definitely can order individual pieces....I do it all the time from them, including saggy swap parts for my CJ.
 
Here's another point of view...did you consider you might be asking for too much out of it? Willys trucks/wagon/F.C....they are what they are. If you don't have deep pockets to have it done, or mad fabrication skills, your really asking too much. Enjoy it for what it is. There,someone shoulda said it awhile back.
 
Joe B said:
I've seen a suggestion from Tim / @timd32 and Scott / @wunderwillys in a previous post on the topic of getting a Ross steering box rebuilt (although I don't see this specifically called out on his web site) that Sal at vintagejeepers.com in Pennsylvania offers this service.

View attachment 163523


Our mothers and our grandmothers managed to drive vehicles for decades that weren't equipped with power steering.

If you add in even just the littlest bit of forward or backward motion to a vehicle with properly working manual steering when cranking into or out of a parking space, just about anybody can turn that steering wheel!

Steering conversions are not for the faint of heart (or for those even moderately lacking of mechanical aptitude)...



(Caution: Uncle Tony's Garage alert!)

I realize you haven't stated that you intend to use this pick up as a daily driver, but there is still good food for thought in the video linked below.

A Beginners Guide To Choosing A Classic Car Or Truck for Use as a Daily Driver
Pay particular attention to what Tony has to say beginning about 4 minutes and 20 seconds in, and also at about 11 minutes and 58 seconds.
Click to expand...
Great info.

Sal at Vintage Jeeper can fix you up with what ever you need for the existing box.

@cwdtmmrs has always been super generous with the base line on how to do it correctly and efficiently.


Sal even carries the better ball bearings and the sort as he knows what the deal is.

Either way might be worth a phone call or check him out on IG to see his work. Maybe he has an answer to your larger question about changing to something different.

Good luck with the project.
 
cwdtmmrs said:
All true. I still think that the Ross box is adequate with a stock motor and stock tires. I think properly built and adjusted you have approx. 45*-55* straight ahead steering with minimal backlash.
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I agree. Adequate is a good description. It's shortcomings are definitely magnified by oversize tires. The short push-pull drag link with spring loaded ends doesn't help anything, either.
 
cwdtmmrs said:
Matt, Sometimes you just have to wait to get what you want.

I have posted many times on how to rebuild a Ross steering box. These are quite simple. There is the sector shaft, the worm tube gear, a couple of bushings, some loose ball bearings, a seal, a gasket and some shims. Don't use any aftermarket parts except for shims. The gear virtually never goes bad. Replace the pins in the sector. Buy bronze bushings the correct size, install them and have them honed to fit the sector shaft. Buy precision ball bearings from a bearing supply house. Make your own gasket. Replace the upper steering column bearing with one from a MB (I think). It can be disassembled and precision bearings installed. It also has a felt wick for oiling. Set up according to Moses Ludel's videos and you will amazed on how good a Ross box can steer with stock tires.
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Would you be willing to rebuild my original unit? If I was to mail it to you how much would you charge?
 
Idaho Mark said:
I like it, but it also came with other problems, like quick steering. Too sensitive. Makes your sphincter suck to the seat at speed quick steering. And it costs a serious chunk of change to have the box gone thru and set up for good road feel.
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Mark, there are quite a few Saginaw boxes out there with different ratios. It may be worth the time and research to find something more suitable, and as you have one already mounted it might be easy to swap it! Not sure which model I have but it's perfect for speed and off roading, but it's a manual. I use a wheel spinner and it can quicken up turns rather well.
Stakebed said:
Maybe a closer Willys business can offer rebuilding services?
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Vintage Jeeper is in Pennsylvania, a lot closer! And as you know Joe, some of the best folks are from there ;)
 
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