Willys wagon suspension lift options???

TurbofireV8

TurbofireV8

Sharpest Tool
Jun 28, 2013
364
Port Orange,FL
First Name
Paul
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1949
  2. 1952
  3. 1961
Now I know lifting a Willys can be a controversial issue on here at times (Yes, I've read all the archived threads on here I could find on the subject) but in the end I am sure a lift is something I want; both for added tire clearance and aesthetic reasons. With that in mind, I've been doing a lot of research on lifting my '61 Willys wagon project and have found surprisingly few options. I currently have a stock frame, stock repo springs all around, and stock 4.27:1 Dana axles. What I'm looking to achieve is around a 5" inch increase in ride height. What I'm not interested in is doing a frame swap, altering my wheelbase, or adding longer springs from another application that would require me to lengthen my front frame horns to accommodate new mounts. I also don't want a lift method that would adversely effect drivability or handling as I plan on this being a true daily driver/road trip capable vehicle.

I've looked at spring over conversions (only briefly) but don't want the compromise to vehicle stability/drivability that it brings, though the increase in height it brings is about perfect. Lengthened shackles is another old school solution I'd seen, but quickly realized was not a good option for several reasons once I did the research. I've also considered a mild/slight body lift in conjunction with some other possible type of lifting technique if need be. Though it comes with it's own issues, it really seems unreasonable to lift the body even as high as an inch in reality. So, not much help there.

Possibly the best option seems to be a higher arched spring from what I can tell. Of course, no one makes such a spring (anymore), so I would have to have a set custom fabricated if I went that route. The only thing that makes me hesitate to go this way though is I've heard that springs with a greater arch are always stiffer (which makes sense) and can greatly compromise ride quality. I know the old Rancho lift springs, which were only a 2" lift, were this way for example. Plus, I've also heard from some places that a higher arched spring can cause stability issues at speed on top of that, and I'm not talking about a raised center of gravity that comes with any lift. Now I don't expect a stock leaf sprung Willys wagon to ride like the proverbial Cadillac (which is fine with me) but I don't want a 'Buck Board' either.

So, what other options are there? The only other thing I could think of was lowering the spring mounts themselves on the frame. At first, though it seems like an easy answer, I thought it sounded kind of ridiculous. To my surprise; however, this is actually an option for lifting some newer trucks and there are kits for up to a 6" lift available online using this manner of lifting technique.

I'm still not sure if this is a great (or the best) option though. Yes, I'd have to make my own longer spring/shackle mounts (which I'd gusset and reinforce of course) but it seems like it could be a verily straight forward mod all things considered. Plus, since the stock springs would be utilized, it shouldn't effect ride quality from stock overall. I know there could be issues with pinion/driveline angles of course, like with any lift, but since I'm replacing the stock drivetrain anyway, I'm willing to tackle that (and the mods needed for things like steering and brake lines as well). My main thought with this option though is: will it look ridiculous? Like a Willys wagon on stilts or something? I don't know. Any thoughts?

Anyway, the point is I'm still not quite sure which way to go. So I'm posting this mostly in hopes of hearing other's thoughts, suggestions, and maybe first hand experience from those who have lifted their Willys with largely stock frame setups. Any experience with higher arched springs especially would be helpful or any lifting alternatives I haven't yet found/thought of. Really any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance...

-Paul W
 
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Find an old set of Ranchos. There are a lot out there, it was a popular lift option in the 1970s and ‘80s. They’re good springs, all things considered. Not sure you can get 5” with them, but you can get enough to run 33” tires and maybe 35”.

If you’re looking for an example, my wagon has Ranchos. Lots of pictures of it on this site. The distance from the top of my rear axle tube to the bottom of the floor of the cargo area is 15”.
 
Lookout Ranch said:
Find an old set of Ranchos. There are a lot out there, it was a popular lift option in the 1970s and ‘80s. They’re good springs, all things considered. Not sure you can get 5” with them, but you can get enough to run 33” tires and maybe 35”.

If you’re looking for an example, my wagon has Ranchos. Lots of pictures of it on this site. The distance from the top of my rear axle tube to the bottom of the floor of the cargo area is 15”.
Click to expand...

I agree with Carter. I think it's unreasonable to expect 5" of lift. Turbofire, I've had experience with lifted trucks, they all rode worse and handled badly. All went back to stock. As with Carter's wagon, you could expect to get 2" from springs and have reasonable ride and handling. Reasonable for a 59 year old vehicle with suspension/ steering design from pre-war America.

How about taking a quality digital side picture of your wagon? Then print several copies. Literally cut the tires out and raise the body over the tires. Unless you want a serious off road vehicle, you'll find 5" is more than you need and you'll dislike the handling if you continue to use leaf springs and Ross steering. Good luck though!

Oh one other thing. If you upgrade to large tires, remember they have greater mass and inertia than the stock pizza cutters. So, big tires need really good brakes to panic stop.
 
Your best bet will be custom springs from Alcan or a similar supplier. You will also need to lengthen the steering drag link. considerably. If you plan on more than a 31" tire you should really consider changing to stronger axles, disk brakes, etc.
 
Thanks everyone for all the replies. I already have front disc brakes and upgraded rear drums by the way, forgot to mention that. I am also looking to add full floater axles to the rear diff and will soon be upgrading the steering to power using one of Herm's kits (already got the donor box and a plan to modify his tie rod kit to work with the lift).

I don't have a problem with leaf springs personally, so the ride quality of an older truck with them doesn't bother me at all. What I am afraid of, is using higher arched springs (like the Ranchos) that will make the stock leaves feel like coils by comparison. I have heard so many people say that the Ranchos are unbearably stiff compared to the stock springs, which makes me nervous to use them. Any input on that Carter? Plus, frankly the 2" of lift they supposedly provide is not enough for me. I have seen other lifted Willys that have other older lift spring conversions installed that do reach the height I am looking for, but as I understand it, the higher the arch the stiffer the spring. Is that not true?

I actually have done a Photoshop of a wagon and lifted the body, Joe (great suggestion by the way), and approximately five inches is what I have settled on after doing so. Do I need all the extra room in the rear wheel well? Yes and no. Day to day driving, probably not as I'm not going with a huge tire, but in off road situations, I think a five inch lift is both reasonable and relatively mild by comparison to many. Frankly it's not just the added ground clearance either. I also happen to like the looks of a 4WD that sits up a bit. What I'm looking to achieve is similar to the old 'high boy' 4X4s of the '50s and '60s by the other manufacturers, where the lift was necessitated typically by divorced transfer cases and subsequent driveline angle needs. Frankly, the Willys sits a bit low for a 4WD of the day, no doubt due in part to it's intended use as a station wagon originally.

I know what I'm looking to achieve is not a popular modification with many on here, but as I previously said, I have already decided to do the lift. I'm just looking for the best route to do so. So again, any further input would be appreciated. Any thoughts on the lowered spring/shackle mounts idea for instance? They make them for modern Fords and GMs with leaves, and they bolt onto the frame. I was considering making some from 3/8" plate steel for the Willys and gusseting them heavily, just not sure.

Edit:
In fact, as far as a good example of the amount of lift I'm looking to get, have you seen the Willys wagon near the end of the movie The Help? It looks to be sprung over as best I can tell but I'm not willing to go that route. Though I've heard spring over conversions are supposed to give you six inches, it looks closer to five to me, even with what looks like 15" wheels.
i450772 2.jpg

For comparison, this is more how mine sits with stock springs, if not a bit lower. NOT my wagon pictured, by the way:
1588866795-s-l1600.jpg
 
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The "high boy" look of Napco conversions in the 50's had more to do with the fact that the live axles were straight replacing a "drop" beam axle where the spindles were well above centerline. The divorced transfer cases were easier to adapt to a typical truck transmission. The axles and transfer cases used were military surplus Dodge Power Wagon units regardless of whether they were installed on Ford or GM trucks. Jeeps were designed to be 4wd and sat lower as a result. This was a selling feature back in the day.

As for the ride of springs with a higher arch, that is determined by the rate of the spring. Tell the spring fabricator what rate and loaded camber you want and that's what you'll get. Poor ride comes from trying to bend an existing spring into a shape it was never designed to be or significantly increasing the rate. The old school Rancho springs ad a significantly higher rate than the original Jeep springs.
 
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Ok well if you want a 5 inch lift a SOA is bout the fastest and cheapest way to go......

.i did a SOA on my 51 truck when i built it ..... a poor mans lift if you will ...... i gained 5 or so inches of lift for bout $100 and bit of labor....

it is a stock body on the stock frame....91 Suburban axles ..... 3.42 gear ratio......being powered by.. SBC,... 700R4 ... and NP208....

IMG_20190503_183422256_HDR.jpg...


IMG_20190504_134108850_HDR.jpg...

and just for that reason.....i wanted a medium lifted look without using body blocks .... or having to buy all new springs and shackles which would have cost me $1000 which i sure as Hell did not have or want to spend......so i spent $100 on four new spring perches and a couple days to install them.......did not have to worry bout drivelines as i did not have any at the time had to source from a junkyard and then made to fit.

my truck came with the what i believe were a set of extra Ranchos when i bought it so i put those in when i did the Suburban axle conversion...

as far as driveability and stability.....Ok sure your are going to raise your center of gravity a little but not so much to really affect anything ....

so as long as you dont do any ....Jackrabbit starts,.....Brick Wall stops,... or Boot Leg turns ...and no sharp city corners at 50 ...i would think with a SOA you should be OK.....

seeing as i have been driving my truck the last 3 years like this....and i been to Moab and back 1100 miles ...and few medium 300 mile trips around the state...all at highway speeds 70+ all day long and never had a problem......this also allows me to go moderately offroad a bit with increased ground clearance.......bottom of diff to ground is 9.75 inches as my truck is sitting on 16inch wheels with 33"s .......been thinking bout going to airbags to soften the ride some ....yes right now,... my truck rides like a kidney bruising ...teeth rattling leaf sprung Willys.... but it is all part of the experience of owning one.

if you can afford to go with all new custom arch springs and longer shackles and drivelines then by all means .....i could not so that is why i went with what i could afford to do.... and still achieve the look i wanted the truck to have.



Larry
 
If you’re considering going to the work of lowering all your spring and shackle mounts, why not consider a longer front leaf spring? As you said, you’ve sorted through the “lift threads” on here, so you’ve likely come across it, but I believe someone on here utilized rear Jeep XJ leaf springs in the rear and rear Jeep YJ leaf springs on the front. The advantages being that they are a wider spring (2-1/2”), longer in both cases, and have a huge aftermarket variety of lift sizes and spring rates. Obviously you’ll have to relocate spring/shackle hangers (more so on the front), but you will have to go that far in an effort to lower them too. When I was into Suzuki Samurais and we built crawlers out of them, the go-to lifts were ones that utilized YJ springs (under or over) as they were longer, wider and used to be plentiful in stock form laying in the piles behind any off toad shop. The difference in ride quality on and off road was night and day.

I’m with you in that I prefer the original lines of the wagon, and don’t wish to have the frame extended further out, so it is something I’ve considered. I’ve done some rudimentary measuring and it seems doable. Another route I’ve considered is adapting the XJ rear leaves/XJ front coil & link, but oddly...not to lift it much, just improve the ride. Mine will never see bigger than 16-7.50 KM3s on stock wheels.
 
Thanks for all the replies again. I have been reading more about spring rates and I guess it is theoretically possible to get a good (or at least similar to stock) ride with higher arch springs. You just have to know what to ask for, and I obviously need to do more research in that regard first. For instance, Nate, I honestly have no idea what rate or loaded camber to tell a fabricator I need at this point. I know what it all that means but how do you figure it? I could figure some of it I guess if I had a fully assembled wagon, but mine is in about a million pieces at the moment. I do still have the repo stock springs and axles on the frame, but with no weight on them anymore. I'm sure I can't exactly tell a spring maker that I want a set of stock rate Willys wagon springs but arched higher to give 5" of lift o_O Nobody in the industry even seems to know what a Willys is anymore. I'm trying to find manufacture specs for stock springs that could give me some of this info but no luck yet.

Oh and Nate, I hear you on the NAPCOs and other 3rd party modified 4WDs of the 50's, but the 1960 to 66 GM 4WDs where factory built to sit that high and they weren't just converted 2WDs anymore. They had their own 4WD frames but still sat up high. From what I have read it was due to the fact that the driveshaft from the transmission had to have a downward angle to the divorced transfer case, which in turn had driveshafts angling down to either axle as normal. So the extra height was to accommodate the transfer case having to be mounted lower then the engine/trans. Not sure why it couldn't have a flatter driveshaft angle to the transfer case, but I guess the engineers had a reason? Or maybe it was just the norm by then thanks to the NAPCO years? Or perhaps they just thought, like me, that a 4X4 should have some more ground clearance?

I have also been doing more research into the Spring Over approach, Larry. I do like the stance of your truck by the way. That is exactly what I'm looking for in height too. I've worked on plenty of trucks that have spring overs stock too, so I wondered why it was such a bad option and why it causes axle wrap issues only in some. Again, it is pretty much all due to spring rate. I don't know what the threshold is though that would be prone to axle wrap, nor do I know what the stock rate the Willys springs are, but I'm sure it is a more complex algorithm then that; including other factors such as engine horsepower, torque, etc. Though from how you talk it sounds like stock Willys springs have that problem anyway. An anti-wrap bar is an option none the less, but yet another added expense of course, and maybe more of a band-aid then a true fix? The main reason I considered lowering the spring mounts was, like you Larry, it's a cheaper option that I can do myself. I already have new stock springs, so it's just the cost of the medal and my time/welding. At the same time, if higher arched springs are a better, safer option (and I can figure out what to ask for) I'm not opposed to paying for them, though I could use that money else where.

As far as using XJ or YJ longer springs, Mike, from what I understand it is not possible without lengthening the frame. Is that not true? I'm just not interested in extending the front frame rails. It always looks awkward to me, especially if you're using stock bumpers. I tried to find an alternative spring option (available with off the shelf lift options) that didn't necessitate lengthening the frame, but had no luck. The Willys springs are just too short from what I understand. Frankly a stock Willys ride doesn't bother me (maybe I'm in the minority here?) but I'm not opposed to a more comfortable ride necessarily either. I've looked at front coil swaps but it just seems like an extreme to me. I just think I should be able to find something to easily give me the rather meager lift I'm looking for without having to go to all that trouble, but it is a Willys after all. I guess custom springs is the only real option? Unfortunately I'm probably a few decades too late to simply go to a spring guy and get something easily made without first having to learn all about Willys springs for myself to know exactly what it is I need to ask for. It's like dealing with the guys at the parts store counter taken to the extreme because now I know almost as little as they do!
 
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This is something I would like to do also but will be one of my last jobs on my truck build. I would like to gain an inch or 2. I thought about putting on air shocks front and back, probably wouldn't get 5 inches but 1 or 2" should be possible with air shocks without affecting ride or handling too much. BCD.
 
Here is a picture of my wagon with spring over rear with longer springs , and coil springs front on gusseted stock frame with 35x12.50x18 Maxxus MT tires. Next to Lookouts wagon with Rancho springs.Run for the Hills Rally 035.jpg
 
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TurbofireV8 said:
Thanks for all the replies again. I have been reading more about spring rates and I guess it is theoretically possible to get a good (or at least similar to stock) ride with higher arch springs. You just have to know what to ask for, and I obviously need to do more research in that regard first. For instance, Nate, I honestly have no idea what rate or loaded camber to tell a fabricator I need at this point. I know what it all that means but how do you figure it? I could figure some of it I guess if I had a fully assembled wagon, but mine is in about a million pieces at the moment. I do still have the repo stock springs and axles on the frame, but with no weight on them anymore. I'm sure I can't exactly tell a spring maker that I want a set of stock rate Willys wagon springs but arched higher to give 5" of lift o_O Nobody in the industry even seems to know what a Willys is anymore. I'm trying to find manufacture specs for stock springs that could give me some of this info but no luck yet.

Oh and Nate, I hear you on the NAPCOs and other 3rd party modified 4WDs of the 50's, but the 1960 to 66 GM 4WDs where factory built to sit that high and they weren't just converted 2WDs anymore. They had their own 4WD frames but still sat up high. From what I have read it was due to the fact that the driveshaft from the transmission had to have a downward angle to the divorced transfer case, which in turn had driveshafts angling down to either axle as normal. So the extra height was to accommodate the transfer case having to be mounted lower then the engine/trans. Not sure why it couldn't have a flatter driveshaft angle to the transfer case, but I guess the engineers had a reason? Or maybe it was just the norm by then thanks to the NAPCO years? Or perhaps they just thought, like me, that a 4X4 should have some more ground clearance?

I have also been doing more research into the Spring Over approach, Larry. I do like the stance of your truck by the way. That is exactly what I'm looking for in height too. I've worked on plenty of trucks that have spring overs stock too, so I wondered why it was such a bad option and why it causes axle wrap issues only in some. Again, it is pretty much all due to spring rate. I don't know what the threshold is though that would be prone to axle wrap, nor do I know what the stock rate the Willys springs are, but I'm sure it is a more complex algorithm then that; including other factors such as engine horsepower, torque, etc. Though from how you talk it sounds like stock Willys springs have that problem anyway. An anti-wrap bar is an option none the less, but yet another added expense of course, and maybe more of a band-aid then a true fix? The main reason I considered lowering the spring mounts was, like you Larry, it's a cheaper option that I can do myself. I already have new stock springs, so it's just the cost of the medal and my time/welding. At the same time, if higher arched springs are a better, safer option (and I can figure out what to ask for) I'm not opposed to paying for them, though I could use that money else where.

As far as using XJ or YJ longer springs, Mike, from what I understand it is not possible without lengthening the frame. Is that not true? I'm just not interested in extending the front frame rails. It always looks awkward to me, especially if you're using stock bumpers. I tried to find an alternative spring option (available with off the shelf lift options) that didn't necessitate lengthening the frame, but had no luck. The Willys springs are just too short from what I understand. Frankly a stock Willys ride doesn't bother me (maybe I'm in the minority here?) but I'm not opposed to a more comfortable ride necessarily either. I've looked at front coil swaps but it just seems like an extreme to me. I just think I should be able to find something to easily give me the rather meager lift I'm looking for without having to go to all that trouble, but it is a Willys after all. I guess custom springs is the only real option? Unfortunately I'm probably a few decades too late to simply go to a spring guy and get something easily made without first having to learn all about Willys springs for myself to know exactly what it is I need to ask for. It's like dealing with the guys at the parts store counter taken to the extreme because now I know almost as little as they do!
Click to expand...
You are right, but the angle is only 4.9 degrees down fron tranny to transfer case. U-joints need a small amount angle to work properly.
1603680795237.png
 
Hard to tell from that angle Rodney, but except for larger tires on your wagon, looks very similar in height to the Ranchos? I like the bar-less late Willys grill though. I plan to do the same to mine. Looks more 'Jeep-like' that way.

Requested an online quote over the weekend through Eaton. Will wait to see what they say. Their website doesn't even list Jeep or Willys for applications though, so we'll see what kind of response I get.
 
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Well, it has been more then a week and Eaton is not getting back to me either by phone or e-mail about my quote requests for higher arched/lift springs. Maybe they are slow due to COVID? Or do they just not want to answer me because they don't know where to begin with a Willys? Guess I can try and talk to a different spring manufacturer in the meantime.

Spring over is looking better and better though to be honest as I don't have to deal with outside companies that don't know what a Willys is. The axle wrap issue still turns me off though for a daily driver.
 
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A properly set up spring over lift works fine. They have gained a reputation for poor driveability/safety primarily because of all the poorly-done ones out there. Keep in mind that all those NAPCOs (and pretty much all full size 4x4 pickups into the 90s) were not only spring over in the rear, but also usually had a 4" or so lift block installed from the factory...

The toughest part of a 5" lift of any sort will be dealing with the steering. The drag link is quite short on a Willys, so lifting quickly amplifies bump steer.

I have some photos of a wagon on 35" tires that was lifted with a combination of custom springs (still under the axles) and dropped spring hangers. It looked weird, and the method struck me as being a lot more work than just doing a spring over.
 
My son and I have done alot of spring overs without any handling issues. I think alot has to do with spring rates. If your springs are old and worn out, a spring over will just exagerate a bad situation.
 
Thanks for the input Andrew and Rodney. A spring over would certainly be easier/cheaper for me. I've also worked on so many stock spring over axles over the years, Andrew, that I've been wondering why it couldn't work. Like you say, Rodney, it seems to have a lot to do with the spring rate, but as I have brand new (literally no miles driven on them) repo stock springs, they are far from worn out. I just don't know if the spring rate stock will be enough to prevent axle wrap issues. Though I also have several sets of old leaf springs from Willys just laying around too, so I could possibly play around with adding an extra leaf if stability, axle wrap is an issue with a spring over. I just don't want to cause the ride quality to suffer too greatly in the process of course.

Though I know another contributing factor with axle wrap is horsepower and torque output of the drivetrain too, as well as lower axle ratios. I'll be running a Chevy inline 6cyl that was mildly built, so not an overly high horsepower/torque engine overall (not V8 level power certainly), though easily more then the stock Willys 226 engine would have been. The axle ratio is also the stock 4.27:1, pretty low though, so neither of these factors will help issues when it comes to possible axle wrap. By the way, Andrew, I'm not worried about the steering as I'm going to do a power steering box conversion with crossover steering at the same time. So I won't be using the original short Willys' draglink (or really much else of the stock system).

The benefit to a spring over (in addition to ground/wheel clearance) is better articulation, or so I've read, though for a wagon that is going to see dirt roads and highway miles more then off-road and trail rides, this isn't my number one concern. I just don't want something that will handle horribly on pavement as a trade off for the extra lift/off-roading capability. If a spring under is more stable in this regard, and can be achieved without making ride quality substantially worst (stiffer spring rates), then it is the better option. However, if a spring over will still allow for stable handling (at least as stable as it is stock) on road and in traffic (changing lanes, making turns), then it would be a viable option too in my opinion. Anyone with a spring over (especially a stock Willys axle/spring set up) care to comment on that possibility?

Edit:
To your point, Andrew, though a bad example perhaps due to it being a heavy duty truck, with equally heavy duty (stiff) springs, my father's '51 Chevy cab over is a spring over both front (I-beam) and rear.

COE1.jpg
 
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I'm glad to see more people supporting spring over conversions. I thought it was just me that found them acceptable. Certainly not going to out corner a 911, but the ones I have had/driven seemed stable enough to me. That said, I've been driving old 4X4's for 47 years and have learned to live with their quirks. Adding an anti-wrap strut to the rear axle and converting to GM steering with a dropped pitman arm should take care of most of your concerns. I think it is the perfect amount of lift for a wagon or pickup.
 
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