134-161 clutch question

[peeweecash]

I have a 2 wheel drive jeep which had a L-head 134 4 cylinder. I am upgrading to a willy's 161 F-head. On a 134 the throw-out bearing arm comes out through the side of the bell housing. The 134 fly-wheel is about 12.5 inch diameter. The 161 flywheel is 13 inch diameter and the 161 clutch does not come out the side of the bellhousing. It is different. My 161 engines came from willy's Aero cars. Now the Aero engines will bolt up to a Willys transmission with some questions but like I say they do the clutch different from the jeeps.

So here are my questions. The bell housing on the Willy's Aero cars do not have the throw-out bearing lever coming through the side of the bell housing like Jeep vehicles. If I use (or can I use) the bellhousing from my 134 so my clutch stuff stays the same, with my 161? Does this mean I need to use the 134-fly wheel and 134 starter and 134 bellhousing on the161 engine? If I could, I would like to use the 161 starter since it is a solenoid starter and I know all that stuff works). No kick starter foot button. Seems like the off sets from 161 starter to a 134 fly-wheel will be different, not to mention the number teeth on the flywheel are different too. Can I use the 161 flywheel and starter with a 134 bell-housing? Do I need to find a 161 bell housing from a truck or station wagon which might have the side throw out bearing opening? Then everything will work?

Or is my only choice to use the 134 bell-housing, flywheel and 134 starter on my 161?

Bill

 

[JABJEEP]

The 134 fly-wheel is about 12.5 inch diameter. The 161 flywheel is 13 inch diameter

I can't help much as far as comparisons between the 134 and 161, but...if, as I think I read here, the 161 is just a longer version of the 134, then there might be another factor to consider that could help interchange stuff. On the 134, there's really only one flywheel. It may be drilled for the taper-dowels or the 9/16" shoulder bolts, but it's the same flywheel (but once it's drilled for the bolts it needs to be mated to a crankshaft that's also sporting the matching style bolts). Then, the ring gears come in several tooth-counts and thicknesses, which affect the overall diameter, and the starter, and I assume bellhousing (starter location). I bring this up because it might help you in mixing and matching parts to make this work for you. You might even be able to just swap starter ring gears on the flywheels to help things fit. If the 161 is from a completely different engine family, then you're going to have a more difficult time mating all these parts.

 

[peeweecash]

To the gentleman who replied. 161's are not just longer. The 161 pistons are 3 1/8th diameter vs 3.5 half diameter on the 134's. But they use the same tranny's. Does anyone know if the Willys Aero cars with 161 F-heads had a hydraulic slave cylinder on the clutches? If so does anyone have a slave cylinder throw-out clutch set up for an Aero's clutch?

Bill

 

[peashooter]

I upgraded my Jeepster from an F-134 to F-161 out of an Aero. Yes, that bell housing is much different, the four-cylinder housing will work just fine using the dowel bolts for alignment. Kept the six-cylinder flywheel and used the starter from the four along with the foot pedal until the starter gave up. Modern high-torque was an easy bolt-in, now activated with a push-button. The Aero oil pan would not fit, I found one from a Lightning along with the sump. Original Jeepster clutch linkage works but Rube Goldberg inspired and begs for a hydraulic upgrade. Engine mounts are pretty rare but not hard to fabricate. I drew a pattern from a friend's six-cylinder Jeepster.

 

[peeweecash]

peashooter thanks for responding. Was there an alignment problem starter to flywheel or tooth problem or both given the 161 flywheel is 1/2 larger with more teeth than the 134 flywheel? I do not think my flywheel has a bolt on ring gear, seems like it is all one casting. So if the Aero cars had a hydraulic clutch it might be best to find the hydraulic slave cylinder set up and put in a hydraulic master cylinder for the clutch? You think?

Bill

 

[peeweecash]

peashooter thanks for responding. Was there an alignment problem starter to flywheel or tooth problem or both given the 161 flywheel is 1/2 larger with more teeth than the 134 flywheel? I do not think my flywheel has a bolt on ring gear, seems like it is all one casting. So if the Aero cars had a hydraulic clutch it might be best to find the hydraulic slave cylinder set up and put in a hydraulic master cylinder for the clutch? You think?

Bill

Also were you saying the oil pan from an Aero car will not fit in a 2 wheel drive Jeep frame because of cross member problems. I've got the motor mount problem solved but was not thinking about oil pan clearance..

Bill

 

[peashooter]

My 1953 Motor Manual make no mention of a hydraulic clutch actuator for the Aero. It would definitely be an upgrade and if I didn't already have the original set up in place I'd go for it.

My bell housing came from a CJ-5 and works with the Jeepster clutch fork. Same input shaft. CJ-5's had the larger 129 tooth ring gear and used a 9 tooth starter pinion. I had no fitment issue with starters.
I think flywheel discs were all the same apart from MB and early CJ2A. Ring gear is pressed on and can be hammered off and flipped over if worn. Put the flywheel in the freezer for a bit and heat the new ring gear in the oven on a day when wife isn't around for easier assembly.
Here's a photo of a Jeepster pan (installed) and the Aero pan the engine came with. Front cross member would be a problem.

 

[peeweecash]

Thanks for your posts, I will look it all over tomorrow and if I can I will post a picture of my Willys Aero bell housing.

Bill

 

[peeweecash]

Thanks for your posts, I will look it all over tomorrow and if I can I will post a picture of my Willys Aero bell housing.

Bill

Thanks for your posts, I will look it all over tomorrow and if I can I will post a picture of my Willys Aero bell housing.

Bill

Here is the bell housing off my 161. There are no holes, brackets or shapes of any kind to mount a throw out fork. There is no pivot pin for a throw=out fork. So the only thing I can figure is perhaps there is a hydraulic cylinder that pushes against the front of the tranny and the hydraulic line goes through those square holes on the side of the bell housing. If anyone has the component parts to make this bellhousing function please let me know. I will also text Jess N. as I think he is a Willys Aero guy with parts. Hopefully the picture posts here, I am trying.

bill

 

[peashooter]

The CJ's used a cable to pull the clutch fork. I think that would get you started. The Kaiser Willys catalog has good illustrations of the three most common arrangements.

 

[peeweecash]

Still researching, but I found where Willys Aero did offer a 2 speed hydromantic (purchased from GM), as an option. Looking at the bell housing could be what was used on my engine. I just do not see where you would place clutch parts on this bell housing. Fortunately, I do have a bell housing from a 4 cylinder 2 wheel drive truck that I will try to make work. Hoping that my solenoid style Aero starter will still work with the kick starter style bell housing. Again the fly wheel on the Aero 161 is 129 tooth and 13" diameter verses 12.5" diameter with 124 teeth on the 4 cylinder Jeep engine. I know someone did say the starter and fly wheel will still line up OK. We will see. Hate to break anything though.

Bill

 

[JABJEEP]

I just do not see where you would place clutch parts on this bell housing.

Doesn't the pivot ball for the clutch fork sit in a hole in the bearing retainer, rather than the bellhousing, on these vehicles? It's all there is, just a ball on a stick that sits in a bored hole in the bearing retainer, and they do fall out as they are not a tight fit.

 

[peashooter]

I doubt you'll break anything, outside a knuckle or two. If it will clear the 129 tooth ring, your truck housing should work and with your starter. Then you can go with the standard Rube Goldberg mechanical clutch linkage. The smaller bell housing will be evident with a quick fit check, its pretty much zero clearance while the larger one has plenty.
There should be a pivot ball mounted in the bearing retainer and held in with a set screw. The retainer has two sockets. The throw out bearing return spring anchors to the unused socket. The clutch fork has an indent to locate it on the ball, no retainer clip needed and was not supported by the bell housing.
The fork cable would pass through that 'fairing' on the left side of your Aero bell housing and lead rearward to a bell crank somewhere.

 

[peashooter]

Aero was a bit different, the clutch fork pivots on the opposite side of the input shaft, has a spring clip to retain it in place.

 

[peeweecash]

Aero was a bit different, the clutch fork pivots on the opposite side of the input shaft, has a spring clip to retain it in place.

OK, I was thinking the pivot for the clutch fork was on the bell housing. I see it is actually on the front of the Tranny, so that is good. So, what I have on my 161, and what you have pictured is a manual shift transmission bell housing from an Aero. car. The Aero car clutch must be designed differently from the jeep trucks and wagons. Jeep trucks and wagons have the clutch fork coming out of the side of the bell housing. I do not see how my Aero car bell housing and clutch would work in my jeep instillation. Anyway, I know 161's were installed on trucks and wagons too so I think what I need is a bell housing off a jeep vs from an Aero car. I have some ideas for finding one.

Thanks Bill

 

[peeweecash]

OK, now I'm thinking. I've got this Aero car bell housing. which is of no use to me. It is all wrong. I also am using my standard 2 wheel drive truck and wagon transmissions with my 161 F-head. It all is going in a 2 WD wagon. Do you guys think if I carefully cut out a pretty good size slot on the left side of the Aero car bell housing so the standard 2 WD wagon shift fork can come out there and then use my normal truck shift linkage? Do you guys think that might work??? I am game to try it. Will there be enough strength in the bell housing??? Also, I am still thinking my 134 bell housing just can't line the starter up correctly given the difference in flywheel diameters. Someone said it is not a problem. And I think the starter bolts are different size too, 161 to 134.

Bill

 

[JABJEEP]

I wouldn’t cut a bellhousing. They’re structurally important, others will disagree. If I were in your position I would keep “playing” with the parts, like a puzzle, to see where any interchangeability exists and go forward from there. As I said earlier, the 134 flywheels are all the same until they’re drilled for the crankshaft (two styles) and the ring gear is installed. To remove (and install) the starter ring gear you just warm it up with a propane torch until it drops off (maybe with some help) and then heat up the new one and carefully place it on. It shrinks as it cools for a press fit. If the 161 shares flywheels with the 134 then you can install the ring that matches your starter onto the flywheel that matches your other parts. But, I only know as much about the 161 as I read here. I have no practical experience working on them so I can’t compare them to the 134 at all. Are you sure that a 134 bell housing won’t bolt up to the 161? If it did, could that solve everything?

 

[peeweecash]

Well you might be right about the ring gear swap. I was thinking once a 134 (diameter) always a 134. Are you saying a 161 ring gear on a stock 134 flywheel increases the diameter to 13" from 12.5 inches?

Bill

 

[JABJEEP]

Well you might be right about the ring gear swap. I was thinking once a 134 (diameter) always a 134. Are you saying a 161 ring gear on a stock 134 flywheel increases the diameter to 13" from 12.5 inches?

Bill

All of my understanding of the 161 is what I read here, that it’s basically a stretched 134. If that’s true, and I don’t know that it is, then a whole bunch of parts are interchangeable, like rods, bearings, seals, front gaskets, pulley, water pump, flywheel, etc. If the flywheels are the same between the 134 and the 161, then yes, the ring gears would be interchangeable and a ring that matches your starter and bellhousing would help you connect this engine to your transmission. This all depends upon the flywheels being the same, an assumption on my part.

 

[timd32]

All of my understanding of the 161 is what I read here, that it’s basically a stretched 134. If that’s true, and I don’t know that it is, then a whole bunch of parts are interchangeable, like rods, bearings, seals, front gaskets, pulley, water pump, flywheel, etc. If the flywheels are the same between the 134 and the 161, then yes, the ring gears would be interchangeable and a ring that matches your starter and bellhousing would help you connect this engine to your transmission. This all depends upon the flywheels being the same, an assumption on my part.

View attachment 162891

I would not have thought to measure the base part (larger) vs the actual ring gear.

Interesting stuff.