Running bad, again...

Pete

Founder/Owner
Staff member
Administrator
Sep 17, 2009
8,063
Hailey, Idaho
First Name
Pete
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1960
Went out this morning and fired up the wagon to take my son to school. It started reluctantly, but ran fine. I let it sit and idle for about 10 minutes in the driveway to warm up. Came out and hopped in, and it was barely running, and wouldn't come off idle.

I noticed that I had left the electric fuel pump on, so I figured it had flooded the engine and or fouled the plugs.

I let it sit for a few hours, and tried it again, same thing. I put in a new set of plugs, no change.

Here's how it runs-

[youtube:6hqoloeq]XFkoLeTCCcg[/youtube:6hqoloeq]

It is getting fuel, and will run rough at idle, but that's it. Ran great yesterday... Reminds me of the snowmobiles I had when I was a kid, ride for 1 hour, fix for five hours, repeat.

Thoughts?
 
73fj said:
If you rev it up does it run better? Can you rev it up without it dying? Carb issue??

I'm thinking it must be the carb. It won't rev at all. When I open the throttle, it just bogs but won't pick up any rpm's. It seems like if it would rev, it would clear itself and start to run fine. I don't know if the pressure from the electric fuel pump blew a gasket or something in the carb or what. The electric pump will flood the engine with fuel when it isn't running. I noticed when I got the wagon that the muffler is bulged out all around, and I couldn't figure out how that could happen. But then a buddy of mine over on the Plymouth forum had the same thing happen to his car, a bunch of raw gas made it's way into the exhaust, and then went off, expanding the muffler like a balloon.

Looks like it's time to get the carb rebuild kit and tackle that next.

Pete
 
I watched your video and in the last frames where the engine dies and blows out fuel vapor it looks like some is coming from the base of the carb where it bolts to the manifold. Check to see if the carb is loose. Spray some carb cleaner around the base with the engine running and see if the rpm's increase. Or, pull the carb and look for a bad base gasket.

Luck,
Old Willy
 
From the sound of it, there is not enough gas in the carb. Could be any one of several things, bad fuel pump, clogged fuel filter, float valve hanging up. Pull the coil wire so the engine won't try to start, remove the fuel line from the carb and crank the engine to see if you have good flow from the pump. If you have good flow, the problem is within the carb.
 
Pete, you had problems with your distributor recently, right? Get your buggy running and recheck your timing. See if the timing is way retarded. Just a thought

Lee
 
Old Willy said:
I watched your video and in the last frames where the engine dies and blows out fuel vapor it looks like some is coming from the base of the carb where it bolts to the manifold. Check to see if the carb is loose. Spray some carb cleaner around the base with the engine running and see if the rpm's increase. Or, pull the carb and look for a bad base gasket.

Luck,
Old Willy

Funny, I didn't notice that puff of vapor from the carb base until you mentioned it. You can clearly see the vapor blow out of the base of the carb. Looks likely that the gasket is bad...

I have a carb rebuild kit on the way, it should be here tomorrow and I'll tear into it.

Pete
 
Flooded Float?? If the pump was left on and even a tiny pin hole in a float could fill the float up all the way and may need some serious drying out time days even. just my experience with the same scenario.
 
Pete said:
73fj said:
If you rev it up does it run better? Can you rev it up without it dying? Carb issue??

I'm thinking it must be the carb. It won't rev at all. When I open the throttle, it just bogs but won't pick up any rpm's. It seems like if it would rev, it would clear itself and start to run fine. I don't know if the pressure from the electric fuel pump blew a gasket or something in the carb or what. The electric pump will flood the engine with fuel when it isn't running. I noticed when I got the wagon that the muffler is bulged out all around, and I couldn't figure out how that could happen. But then a buddy of mine over on the Plymouth forum had the same thing happen to his car, a bunch of raw gas made it's way into the exhaust, and then went off, expanding the muffler like a balloon.

Looks like it's time to get the carb rebuild kit and tackle that next.

Pete
Pete with the engine off and the air cleaner off and with the chock open position your self right over the carb so you can see in it. then turn the throttle linkage clear open like pumping the throttle and see if a stream of gas shoots into the carb from the side of the barrel not the venture. IF there is no gas stream or a real weak then your accelerator pump in the carb is bad. The way an accelerator pump works is like when you pump it before starting it gets gas in the carb to help get the engine started, but the other reason there is a accelerator pump and most impotent is when you are driving and you push hard an the accelerator the accelerator pump shoots in a stream of gas to compensate for the quick opening of the valve and mass air coming in in the carb before the ventures compensate. BOB
A rebuild kit is what I would do
 
Stumped...

Ok, I spent a few hours on my carb yesterday. I got the rebuild kit, and it had all the right stuff in it. Removed the carb, and it was clear that the base gasket did not have a good seal. I didn't see anything obvious in the carb, aside from being fairly dirty. It has been apart before, judging from the buggered screws...

Got it all spiffy clean, adjusted the float, and re-assembled it with all the new parts and gaskets. Installed the carb, and fired it up hoping for the best. And... it runs the same as it did before...

Here's a new clip-

[youtube:hrvaqsqz]YMVhr7iBVsQ[/youtube:hrvaqsqz]

I also installed my new spark plug wires, and still, no change.

So, rebuilt carb, new coil, new condensor, new points, new plugs and wires. The carb is squirting gas. Ran fine one day, runs like this the next.

The timing has not changed, but I can't check it because my balancer with the timing marks has come apart... I did loosen the timing hold down clamp and adjust the timing back and forth, and it didn't make any difference in the way it runs. I put it back where it was...

I'm stumped, any thoughts?

Pete
 
check the condenser, i know it is new , but the quality of that stuff is'nt what it used to be. next check distributer bushings, ( play in distributer shaft). put dwell meter on and see if dwell remains constant. if dwell keeps changing, the distributer bushings are worn. also part of old school tuneup, adjust valve clearance. hope this helps
 
Hey Pete
Can you connect the electric fuel pump to a external tank? Perhaps the fuel pick-up is clogged? (Or pull the carb end and CAREFULLY check the fuel delivery rate.)

I was going to guess the timing got knocked off, but it seems you've got that covered by changing the setting up and down a little. At some point, you might want to get #1 at top dead center on the compression stroke and scribe a new TDC mark...

I'd try a compression test on all cylinders next.

Hang in there, buddy!
Joe
 
mine does the same thing with the air cleaner on (sbc 350) without the air cleaner it runs great and i know this is bcuz of low compression (my motor is worned out) i dont know how yours was running bfore but you might try it without the air cleaner to see what happens. good luck
 
Re: Stumped...

Pete said:
Ok, I spent a few hours on my carb yesterday. I got the rebuild kit, and it had all the right stuff in it. Removed the carb, and it was clear that the base gasket did not have a good seal. I didn't see anything obvious in the carb, aside from being fairly dirty. It has been apart before, judging from the buggered screws...

Got it all spiffy clean, adjusted the float, and re-assembled it with all the new parts and gaskets. Installed the carb, and fired it up hoping for the best. And... it runs the same as it did before...

Here's a new clip-

[youtube:jd2czf3n]YMVhr7iBVsQ[/youtube:jd2czf3n]

I also installed my new spark plug wires, and still, no change.

So, rebuilt carb, new coil, new condensor, new points, new plugs and wires. The carb is squirting gas. Ran fine one day, runs like this the next.

The timing has not changed, but I can't check it because my balancer with the timing marks has come apart... I did loosen the timing hold down clamp and adjust the timing back and forth, and it didn't make any difference in the way it runs. I put it back where it was...

I'm stumped, any thoughts?

Pete

Pete, do you know what pressure the pump is delivering to the carb? it should be no more than 14 PSI and no less than 6 PSI. too much pressure can cause blowby the carb float causing an over rich condition. Did you check for vacumme leaks?????? Vac leakes will cause an over rich condition at idle and over rev while shifting gears.
My guess at first glance after rebuild was Vac leak, but pump may pushing too much to carb as well.
 
Re: Stumped...

kramwit said:
Pete, do you know what pressure the pump is delivering to the carb? it should be no more than 14 PSI and no less than 6 PSI. too much pressure can cause blowby the carb float causing an over rich condition. Did you check for vacumme leaks?????? Vac leakes will cause an over rich condition at idle and over rev while shifting gears.
My guess at first glance after rebuild was Vac leak, but pump may pushing too much to carb as well.

Mark-

I think the electric pump has too much pressure, but I haven't checked it. When I got the wagon, it was wire to come on with the key. One of the first things I did was to put the pump on a switch to turn it off, and found that the stock pump works fine. I've tried running it with and without the electric pump, no change in the way it runs. In the clips I posted above, the engine is running on the stock pump, no electric pump.

I can't seem to find any other vacuum leaks. I sprayed carb cleaner all around the intake, carb, and manifolds with no change in idle. I also tried to get it to rev by pouring a bit of fresh gas down the carb, and it wouldn't rev. I think it is getting plenty of gas.

It is running on about three cylinders, and it seems to me it is electrical, not fuel related. I'm on my way out to the garage to look over the distributor again, put the old condenser back in for a test, and to check the points again. Going to do a compression test too while I'm out there.

I'll post a report in a couple of hours...

Pete
 
Pete, pull the cover on the valves, start her up see if they all have proper operation (Opening and closing) Cylinder pressure test will tell if you have a leak in either valves or rings. to check valves in pressure test, pour a little oil, about a quarter cup, in sparkplug opening and test cylinder pressure. if you have bad pressure then it's valves.
What plugs are you using? are the wires copper core or silicone core? Copper is better in these Ol' Darlins.
 
Pete,were you out cruising around in the snow and salt the day before it started running bad?Maybe salt coating coil tower,cap and wires found a crack to seep in some place,I had a similar problem on a tractor years ago,ended up being a crack in the coil,thats about all you haven't replaced isn't it?You might want to check the timeing by pulling #1 plug out and put a finger over the hole and have your strong teenage son turn the motor over by turning the fan and listen for the air on compression stoke to find TDC,that would tell for sure if some how it jumped out of time....good luck..Jim
 
Eureeka!

I knew it was something simple, just took me a bit to find it...

I checked the compression, not very consistent but between 85 and 100 psi. This ruled out a stuck valve....

I've been thinking all along it was electrical, not fuel, because it was so sudden. So I decided to swap in the old condenser to see if it made a difference. I pulled off the distributor cap, and climbed under the hood to take out the screws that hold in the condenser. Just for grins, I made sure it was in neutral and used a screwdriver on the starter solenoid to turn it over while I watched the points. There was spark at the points contacts, but it didn't look right. I tried to open the points with my screw driver, and the arm that moves back and forth fell off....

The old points were all metal, and the new points that I replaced them with less than 50 miles ago have a plastic piece that rotates on the hinge, and has a metal arm attached with four little copper rivets. These rivets failed, and the arm was hanging on by one of the four.

Ran over the auto parts place that I got them from, got a replacement set, and it fired right up.

I adjusted the carb a bit, and it revs fine. It ran pretty shitty for a while, missing and stumbling. I decided to take it for a spin, and drove it in a blizzard to my office, 15 miles away. I ran it about 50 mph up the highway, and by the time I got to my office it was running pretty good. The missing and stumbling went away. I still need to adjust the choke and fiddle with the carb a bit more, but it is back on the road . :cheers: Starts much easier too, now that the carb base gasket is sealed.

Just in time too, I have to take my Tahoe in for repair on Friday, and the wagon will be a daily for a few days until I get the Tahoe back.

Put some new wiper blades on and can now see where I'm going in the snow. The defroster actually melted the frost off of the inside of the glass... :thumbupleft:

Pete
 
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