Electric pickups

How long will they last in the cold?
Lithium batteries need to be above freezing to accept a charge.
Having built a camper van, I was faced with the what type of battery(s) to use for house power. Lithium iron is quite popular these days; Light and very compact for the amount of amperage the provide compared to lead acid. As a rough example, 300 amps can fit in a glove box and weighs a fraction of comparable lead acid. BUT, they are way more expensive and in addition to the need to be kept above freezing, they also need a different parameter for charging. Also, one thing I've heard is that lead acid batteries are easier to recycle, hopefully that's either wrong or changes in the near future.
FWIW, I chose AGM to keep it simple and cheaper. New technologies in lead acid are making them able to cycle more and deeper without damage, plus I don't need to have a separate charging system. This is obviously off topic as lead acid won't ever be a choice for powering vehicles beyond a golf cart.
 
and yet, here we are with non-journalistic, entertainment-oriented 'news' having to weed out the truth while having pictures/articles censored.
sigh
So much effort expended when a decent article with valid sources and a well-rounded viewpoint should have been done.

I remember when it wasn't a crime to provide truth in writing.

Rant over.
JW
 
My daughter and her husband bought a Hyundai Kona Electric. They love driving it -- it's quiet and powerful with great torque. But not all is sunshine and roses.

In early October, they decided to take it on a trip to Las Vegas for a family event. They would be going via Bishop, CA, to pick up an aunt. This required careful planning to map out charging stations along the mostly rural route. However, they found that just because the internet says there's a charging station in Timbuctoo doesn't necessarily mean there's one that works or works with their car.

Nevertheless, they managed to get to Las Vegas without too much drama. But when they got in the car for the return trip, it was dead. Nothing. They called the Las Vega Hyundai dealership and were told they don't sell, service or support electric vehicles. After much effort, they managed to get hold of someone at Hyundai of North America, where they weren't too sure what too do, either. Finally, Hyundai agreed to transport the car 600 miles back to the Northern California dealership where they bought it. And give them a gasoline powered loaner to drive in the meantime.

It's been almost 2 months and they're still driving the loaner. The car is at the dealership needing an entirely new battery pack, and the Hyundai folks aren't sure when one will turn up.

Clearly it's still early days for the EV industry. This is probably not unlike what happened when the first motorists ventured into the hinterlands and broke down in a world of horses and buggies.
 
My daughter and her husband bought a Hyundai Kona Electric. They love driving it -- it's quiet and powerful with great torque. But not all is sunshine and roses.

In early October, they decided to take it on a trip to Las Vegas for a family event. They would be going via Bishop, CA, to pick up an aunt. This required careful planning to map out charging stations along the mostly rural route. However, they found that just because the internet says there's a charging station in Timbuctoo doesn't necessarily mean there's one that works or works with their car.

Nevertheless, they managed to get to Las Vegas without too much drama. But when they got in the car for the return trip, it was dead. Nothing. They called the Las Vega Hyundai dealership and were told they don't sell, service or support electric vehicles. After much effort, they managed to get hold of someone at Hyundai of North America, where they weren't too sure what too do, either. Finally, Hyundai agreed to transport the car 600 miles back to the Northern California dealership where they bought it. And give them a gasoline powered loaner to drive in the meantime.

It's been almost 2 months and they're still driving the loaner. The car is at the dealership needing an entirely new battery pack, and the Hyundai folks aren't sure when one will turn up.

Clearly it's still early days for the EV industry. This is probably not unlike what happened when the first motorists ventured into the hinterlands and broke down in a world of horses and buggies.

Well at least they gave them a loaner and paid the tow bill. Why don't they just give them their money back. I wouldn't ever trust that thing again.
 
My daughter and her husband bought a Hyundai Kona Electric. They love driving it -- it's quiet and powerful with great torque. But not all is sunshine and roses.

In early October, they decided to take it on a trip to Las Vegas for a family event. They would be going via Bishop, CA, to pick up an aunt. This required careful planning to map out charging stations along the mostly rural route. However, they found that just because the internet says there's a charging station in Timbuctoo doesn't necessarily mean there's one that works or works with their car.

Nevertheless, they managed to get to Las Vegas without too much drama. But when they got in the car for the return trip, it was dead. Nothing. They called the Las Vega Hyundai dealership and were told they don't sell, service or support electric vehicles. After much effort, they managed to get hold of someone at Hyundai of North America, where they weren't too sure what too do, either. Finally, Hyundai agreed to transport the car 600 miles back to the Northern California dealership where they bought it. And give them a gasoline powered loaner to drive in the meantime.

It's been almost 2 months and they're still driving the loaner. The car is at the dealership needing an entirely new battery pack, and the Hyundai folks aren't sure when one will turn up.

Clearly it's still early days for the EV industry. This is probably not unlike what happened when the first motorists ventured into the hinterlands and broke down in a world of horses and buggies.
But I do admire their courage as "early adopters"!
 
My daughter and her husband bought a Hyundai Kona Electric. They love driving it -- it's quiet and powerful with great torque. But not all is sunshine and roses.

In early October, they decided to take it on a trip to Las Vegas for a family event. They would be going via Bishop, CA, to pick up an aunt. This required careful planning to map out charging stations along the mostly rural route. However, they found that just because the internet says there's a charging station in Timbuctoo doesn't necessarily mean there's one that works or works with their car.

Nevertheless, they managed to get to Las Vegas without too much drama. But when they got in the car for the return trip, it was dead. Nothing. They called the Las Vega Hyundai dealership and were told they don't sell, service or support electric vehicles. After much effort, they managed to get hold of someone at Hyundai of North America, where they weren't too sure what too do, either. Finally, Hyundai agreed to transport the car 600 miles back to the Northern California dealership where they bought it. And give them a gasoline powered loaner to drive in the meantime.

It's been almost 2 months and they're still driving the loaner. The car is at the dealership needing an entirely new battery pack, and the Hyundai folks aren't sure when one will turn up.

Clearly it's still early days for the EV industry. This is probably not unlike what happened when the first motorists ventured into the hinterlands and broke down in a world of horses and buggies.
California has some of the strongest "lemon laws" in the nation. Annnnnd a crap ton of bottom sucking, low fruit picking, low life lawyers to get after it. After thirty days in the shop, they have to replace it or buy you out. That is where the lawyers come in. Often times they offer a ridiculous buy out. My brother had that happen. They wanted to reduce the value far beyond the 8000 miles he had on it. Lawyer got him ALL his money back, less a 2000 fee.
 
Great discussion and questions. Let's see here. Happy to provide boring, small-font scientific reports/references for any of these:

Battery recycling: I fully expect the fledgling battery recycling industry to develop into a full industry. The automakers are required to warranty the batteries for ten years/150,000 miles (moving to 15 years/150K in 2026) and are investing billions in ensuring not only a great customer experience, but also to minimize their financial liability. Battery packs are made up of cells. It is extremely rare that battery packs themselves go bad; there is not much data yet, but most indicates that it is more individual cells or cell-level parts of the battery pack that need repair or replacement. Battery packs can be repaired in-vehicle, removed, replaced, and repaired, used in other functions (like home storage systems), or eventually taken apart into the components that we can read about so much online. Some parts of the world, for example Europe, have very strict rules on recycling (not just batteries or EV components). Car companies for example are responsible for the car they sell in Europe for its entire life.

Battery life: Also, the global automakers are investing significantly in battery management systems to keep the battery pack strong and healthy during use, during charging, while parked etc. This battery management system is a combination of computer sensors and control coupled with good old thermal control (think radiators and/or temperature shields) to keep batteries in their sweet spot. All of the automotive OEMs except one have done this. Right now, the early data is showing the batteries in most cases are outlasting the EVs themselves. Due to these battery management systems, the batteries are much more babied than the ones in our phones, laptops, flashlights, etc. @tim32 and @Tralehead are talking about batteries that don't have an integrated battery management system like the ones in EVs do. They share similarities, but are much different.

Extreme weather: Cold weather does impact battery performance, just like it does gasoline or diesel engines. My uncle goes fishing in Montana every year visiting a childhood friend. One of their big concerns is whether or not the full-size truck will even start in cold weather after sitting parked for a few days. What takes a lot of energy from the battery is heating the air inside the cabin of a vehicle. Most of us are familiar with this with our own homes. Radiant heat in cars - e.g. seat heaters and steering wheel heaters - are much more efficient than merely heating up the cabin air. I may have written this in another post: at work, we found this with a transit bus demonstration in New York that involved two electric bus companies. One company solely heated the air inside the bus; the other company heated everything the passengers touched or sat on plus a bit of the inside air. The energy consumption differences are significant. Purists may not want to burn anything, but a little bit of combustion goes a long way in making heat. Liquid-fueled cabin heaters may have a role in some areas. Also, electric vehicles can pre-heat or pre-cool while plugged in, using grid power to not only heat (or cool) the cabin, but also pre-heat or pre-cool the battery, again part of the battery management system. A good friend of mine lives in the Rockies and tells me how the workplace charging in winter is the best $1 he spends everyday... coming out to a defrosted and toasty warm EV in the middle of a snowstorm at the end of a long workday, while everyone else's car is snowed over in the parking lot.

EV charging infrastructure: Most charging is done at home and work where most cars sit parked 20+ hours each day. You can even charge at 120V. Like our smart phones, the EVs charge while we are doing other things in life: cooking, spending time with family, working on the Willys, etc. Like a smart phone, you don't have to watch an EV charge. That being said, for the 3-5% of the time when one needs to charge in public (like @Lookout Ranch 's example of the spotty road trip), the U.S.'s public charging network is fragmented and lags the rest of the world's. We are getting there, but it will take time and money. Tesla deserves a lot of critique for many things, but they should be lauded for their charging network.,

Lemon law: California's lemon law is very effective. We had to invoke it once in my extended family... for a gasoline-powered car.
 
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My daughter and her husband bought a Hyundai Kona Electric. They love driving it -- it's quiet and powerful with great torque. But not all is sunshine and roses.

In early October, they decided to take it on a trip to Las Vegas for a family event. They would be going via Bishop, CA, to pick up an aunt. This required careful planning to map out charging stations along the mostly rural route. However, they found that just because the internet says there's a charging station in Timbuctoo doesn't necessarily mean there's one that works or works with their car.

Nevertheless, they managed to get to Las Vegas without too much drama. But when they got in the car for the return trip, it was dead. Nothing. They called the Las Vega Hyundai dealership and were told they don't sell, service or support electric vehicles. After much effort, they managed to get hold of someone at Hyundai of North America, where they weren't too sure what too do, either. Finally, Hyundai agreed to transport the car 600 miles back to the Northern California dealership where they bought it. And give them a gasoline powered loaner to drive in the meantime.

It's been almost 2 months and they're still driving the loaner. The car is at the dealership needing an entirely new battery pack, and the Hyundai folks aren't sure when one will turn up.

Clearly it's still early days for the EV industry. This is probably not unlike what happened when the first motorists ventured into the hinterlands and broke down in a world of horses and buggies.
It's now been nearly 5 months and my daughter and her husband are still driving a gas-powered loaner from the Hyundai dealer, where their car sits waiting for a new battery pack.
Apparently, Hyundai wants to use the battery packs it has to sell new cars rather than use them to replace faulty battery packs in cars they've already sold.
 
It's now been nearly 5 months and my daughter and her husband are still driving a gas-powered loaner from the Hyundai dealer, where their car sits waiting for a new battery pack.
Apparently, Hyundai wants to use the battery packs it has to sell new cars rather than use them to replace faulty battery packs in cars they've already sold.
Hyundai is Korean also. I wonder if their batteries are made by LG? I just bought the New LG Wash Tower Stacked washer and drier. Should I be worried about it burning down the house.?
 
A German highway has electric tram lines for semi trucks. Even if they did that with major highways here, you could cut the battery needs to 80-100 miles
 
@Lookout Ranch, that’s rough about lack of a replacement battery for the Kona. I’m sure they are furious. LG Energy (formerly part of LG Chem) made both the battery for the Bolt and Kona. A few of the Bolt batteries had dual manufacturing defects; not sure how the Kona’s batteries are related, if at all.

@rocket, your frig came from LG Electronics. All are divisions of the same mega corporation LG, but it’s akin to GE insurance and GE turbines… connection largely in name only.

@Inferno, those inductive charging roads are a bold pilot. I wonder how they will hold up to weather and how much maintenance they will require over time. I can see a future with wireless charging at known stops (bus stops, airport shuttle stops, the outside covered parking foyer (?) outside a hotel lobby, taxi stands, etc. An entire road of wireless charging raises a lot of questions, but that is what the pilot is for.

@DzlFC, the semis powered by overhead catenary wires were also piloted in the Los Angeles basin on the route from the ports to the warehouses in the inland valley area. Lots of problems and complications. Some of the bus routes here in town use catenary wires too, with varying degrees of success.

If anyone wants links to reports or PowerPoints for any of these projects (cure for insomnia?), send me a PM.
 
It all would be nice, to go all electric, but PG&E can't seem to keep the power on up here for more than week at a time when the weather is nice. And now the Gov want to get rid of small gas engines. How does a battery-electric generator work, and how long will it power your house when the lines are down???? And can they make an electric timber falling saw that will work in the woods all day without carrying 100lb batteries around with us.
I'm all for it, but not at the expense of getting rid of fossil fuels before the infrastructure is complete and able to handle all electric!
 
@scramboleer, I could also see an inductive unit in our garages. So, we simply drive home and the car starts charging.

Also, I see the EU is labeling nueclear power as “green”.
There was an article I remember in Popular Mechanics in 1970 about an experimental Honda Civic that the factory had built. It had a small nuclear reactor about the size of a large car battery. That reactor supplied the power to electrolyze water in a tank. Thus generating Hydrogen Gas which fueled a converted Civic 4 cylinder engine. No idea what happened to it. I guess it died along with 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl!
 
There was an article I remember in Popular Mechanics in 1970 about an experimental Honda Civic that the factory had built. It had a small nuclear reactor about the size of a large car battery. That reactor supplied the power to electrolyze water in a tank. Thus generating Hydrogen Gas which fueled a converted Civic 4 cylinder engine. No idea what happened to it. I guess it died along with 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl!
Wow, that’s cool!
 
Forget EV's
 
Love this thread. Reminds me of some quote about how the sun manages to heat all the planets, keep them in orbit, and at the same time also powering every single little flower on earth, all the little algea. Think we could figure out how to get the sun or some algae to power cars and cities? I am for fusion, but also think some einstein needs to figure out an oceanic or photosynthetic or algal bloom solutions.

Edit: you dont need a battery if you store energy in an algal mat. And you dont need a power plant since we have the sun. And put the contraption on the water to avoid Nimby. My 2c
 
Can anyone answer the question. Why do most all City Transit Busses say (Powered by CLEAN Natural Gas) on the side of them, and all our kids and grand kids are riding on School Busses Powered by Diesel??? I have a 1966 Cummins CT464 Diesel engine, the service manual list it as being available in Diesel or Natural gas in 1966.
We were a net exporter of Natural Gas a couple years ago, and the only country to drop their Carbon Footprint by 10% according to the last Paris Climate Accord conference. They don't like to admit it because we did it by Fracking for Natural Gas and burning less coal.
 
@scramboleer, I could also see an inductive unit in our garages. So, we simply drive home and the car starts charging.

Also, I see the EU is labeling nueclear power as “green”.
That's true... I was thinking of outside the house, but yeah - a wireless home charging pad for an EV might be quite attractive to some folks too.
 
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