Distributor Issues

aearthman

aearthman

Bigger Hammer
All-Star
Nov 7, 2013
46
Lawrence, Kansas
First Name
Chris
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1962
I’m beginning to think the company that rebuilt my L226 has installed the oil pump incorrectly. Before I started this project I numbered the distributor to match the plug wires to the cylinders and had cylinder No. 1 at about the one o'clock position. When I set the distributor on the shaft and set cylinder No. 1 to top dead center, the rotor is not lining up with where cylinder No. 1 should be. If you look at the photo below the rotor is almost to cylinder No. 4

CB5AFF45-CC7D-4592-88A2-3C0080EB373A.jpeg

In the second photo, I’ve turned the distributor drive shaft 180 degrees hoping that was the issue, but then the rotor lines up almost with cylinder No. 5. I know that the distributor will fit into the slot at the top of its drive shaft only one way as the slot is offset from its center.

81BD4BA4-1F93-4BB9-8F24-EF613DC67852_1_201_a.jpeg

Reading in the Willys Service Manual Section C-22, Incorrect Installation of Oil Pump; “the relationship of the oil pump driven gear to the driven gear on the camshaft is critical because it determines the relationship between distributor rotor position and piston position.” One tooth off, and the timing will be 36 degrees advanced or retarded. “With the No. 1 piston at top dead center the distributor rotor should point downward and forward at about five o’clock”.

But that’s not where I marked cylinder No. 1! Looks like its at cylinder No. 4. Downward and forward from where exactly?

Has someone experience this issue? Am I missing something here? Does anyone have a photo of their distributor and rotor at TDC for cylinder No. 1, looking down directly from the front of the engine?

It is the Auto-Lite IAT 4206B distributor I'm using.

Not looking forward to dropping the oil pan before I exhaust all other options first and see if someone can show me just what is going on with this.
 
aearthman said:
I’m beginning to think the company that rebuilt my L226
Click to expand...
Did they know that the timing chain marks don't line up on a 226, but are 9 links "out"?
index.php
 
That’s what I’m going to have to find out. It’s been almost three years since I had the engine overhauled. The company specialized in industrial engines and Continental was listed on their website. I would not be surprised if something slipped past them.
What should I do first, drop the oil pan to check the oil pump or remove timing chain cover to verify valve timing?
 
aearthman said:
What should I do first,
Click to expand...
Keep investigating without taking too much apart. Establish that #1 is at top dead center and go from there. The 134 has fooled a lot of guys as far as the oil pump, but is easily corrected compared to the 226, but with the manual in hand, you should be able to do a lot of sluething before you dive into it. If you just start removing stuff, will that affect any negotiations you may have to do with the engine builder? Do some detective work first, then maybe involve them before you take stuff apart. Don't rely on the timing mark on the harmonic balancer, they're known to slip over time.
 
Chris,
Do you have a compression tester?

It does seem that there are alignment issues with the drive off the oil pump, but it might not impact operability.

Here is an image of a page from a service manual describing how to set things up with the "factory correct" clock position of the distributor drive shaft:

1775643403019.png

I'm with Jeff.
Don't break any gasket seals just yet.

Do a compression test and see what you've got.

If the results are good, I'd suggest you try running the engine before prospecting for oil.

While the plug wires might not end up positioned on the distributor cap where you expect/want them to, the order of the firing is more important than their collective clock position on the distributor.

(Not to scarz ya, but see here for Gary / @duke94 's epic tale of a cam timing conundrum:
https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/cam-timing-6-226.7790/)

Spoiler Alert: It does have a happy ending!
 
I’m going to explore the Top Dead Center issue today. I’ve got a compression tester. I’ve used it, and my thump over the plug hole, to locate “near top dead center”. But, for this supercharger project, (link at the bottom) I had to replace the existing vibration damper with one from a 1954 Kaiser to allow for the pulley for the supercharger drive belt. It looks like the timing index indicators on the Kaiser vibration damper do not match where the Willys pointer on the timing chain cover is installed. Not surprised really. The Kaiser vibration damper is larger in diameter. I had to bend the pointer up to accommodate the larger diameter damper, and of course the Kaiser was its own thing.

I asked my local machinist and he says that the keyway on the crankshafts, and typically, keyway on the vibration dampers, line up relative to top dead center of cylinder No. 1. He says that’s the way it is on Fords, Chevys and just about all makes he’s come across.

What I’ll do next is follow the instructions in the service manual for C-25, “Timing Pointer Setting Incorrect”, and find TDC using C-27, “With Cylinder Head Installed;”
“crank the engine until No. 1 piston is near top dead center (compression stroke). Then fill No. 1 cylinder with enough oil to bring the level to the bottom of the spark plug hole. Turn the crankshaft slowly until the oil just starts to recede from its highest level; mark the vibration damper at the resulting pointer indication. Turn the crankshaft counterclockwise until the oil again starts to recede after reaching the maximum level, mark the vibration damper at this second pointer indication. Move the crankshaft until the pointer is exactly halfway between the two marks just scribed. The pointer should now point directly to the zero mark on the vibration damper. If not, without allowing the crankshaft to move, bend the pointer until it does point to zero.” Oh boy.

The photo below shows “near top dead center” for cylinder No. 1. You can see how the index marks are way off the “Zero” mark.

I don’t have enough free time to fill the cylinder and do the marking today. But hopefully first thing tomorrow, after coffee and free time ahead of me, I can try this and post the results. Sounds interesting.

F094CCB2-FA83-47E1-A7F0-C793329C479D.jpeg

Kaiser supercharger on 1962 Willys Wagon

Well, it's coming together, slowly, and costly. I purchased this 1962 utility wagon from a friend of mine in 2013. After I bought it he said that these engines had been supercharged. Naturally, I fell into that one. I found a complete Kaiser supercharger system on eBay. The seller didn't pack...
www.oldwillysforum.com www.oldwillysforum.com
 
Joe B said:
Chris,
Do you have a compression tester?

It does seem that there are alignment issues with the drive off the oil pump, but it might not impact operability.

Here is an image of a page from a service manual describing how to set things up with the "factory correct" clock position of the distributor drive shaft:

View attachment 200109

I'm with Jeff.
Don't break any gasket seals just yet.

Do a compression test and see what you've got.

If the results are good, I'd suggest you try running the engine before prospecting for oil.

While the plug wires might not end up positioned on the distributor cap where you expect/want them to, the order of the firing is more important than their collective clock position on the distributor.

(Not to scarz ya, but see here for Gary / @duke94 's epic tale of a cam timing conundrum:
https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/cam-timing-6-226.7790/)

Spoiler Alert: It does have a happy ending!
Click to expand...
i've looked at that illustration. I'm somewhat confident that the cam timing is OK. I get good compression on all cylinders at their proper time. I have not installed the intake or exhaust manifold yet, I have not pulled the valve cover off yet. I'm going to verify top dead center on No. 1 cylinder before doing anything else.

I'm reading the thread you attached. That's why I'm concerned about the machine shops workmanship. It's so easy to miss something, even someone experienced. Theres a great quote by someone, can't remember how I found it but he was well regarded Formula One mechanic, "Just put your mind to it, sit down, build stuff, learn what's wrong with, fix it and get on with life" I'm going to have it tattooed on my right forearm.
 
Joe B said:
Chris,
Do you have a compression tester?

It does seem that there are alignment issues with the drive off the oil pump, but it might not impact operability.

Here is an image of a page from a service manual describing how to set things up with the "factory correct" clock position of the distributor drive shaft:

View attachment 200109

I'm with Jeff.
Don't break any gasket seals just yet.

Do a compression test and see what you've got.

If the results are good, I'd suggest you try running the engine before prospecting for oil.

While the plug wires might not end up positioned on the distributor cap where you expect/want them to, the order of the firing is more important than their collective clock position on the distributor.

(Not to scarz ya, but see here for Gary / @duke94 's epic tale of a cam timing conundrum:
https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/cam-timing-6-226.7790/)

Spoiler Alert: It does have a happy ending!
Click to expand...
I thought of something you mentioned above; as this has been owned by multiple people, maybe there was work done on it prior and they got things out of wack. If the distributor rotor is supposed to be at the five o'clock position, as stated in the service manual, and my original photos show it at one o'clock, I just need to put the plugs in the correct order as the distributor rotates and the manual says.

Now when I'm standing in front of the engine, turning the crankshaft clockwise, the distributor is turning counter clockwise. I hope thats correct?
 
The direction of rotation of your distributor in relation to the crankshaft rotation is correct.

Someone long ago mentioned that this is opposite of what you'll find on most other engines, and has thrown more than one of the gang around here off, as they loaded the plug wires on the L6-226 distributor cap backwards as they followed the specified firing order, but in the wrong direction!


The position of the sparkplug hole in the L6226 head almost makes it possible -- with the right lighting -- to see the tops of the valves.

I bought a cheap Amazon $35 video (cellphone) borescope to see if I could observe the action of the valves and the piston a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I haven't tried it out yet!
 
Joe B said:
I bought a cheap Amazon $35 video (cellphone) borescope to see if I could observe the action of the valves and the piston a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I haven't tried it out yet!
Click to expand...
Well, for gosh sakes, get out there and give it a try… ;)
I’ve thought about getting something like that but worried it would be a waste of 35 bucks. Love to hear if it’s any good…
 
My buddy Morris gave me his old scope when he upgraded to a newer one.
I used it to check the vents thru the roof on my house to make sure they were open all the way down to the fitting at the waste pipe.
I've not used it yet as a bore-scope, and it links up with the iphone. _ kinda cool.

Probably most of my engines don't have the dizzy in the correct "clocked" position, but I simply put no. 1 plug wire where the rotor points. :)
 
buxman66 said:
I had downloaded several of the Sun/AEA/Autolite diagnostic diagrams of the L6-226 and the #1 cylinder is depicted in several different positions. View attachment 200160View attachment 200161
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I have the 1963 Sun diagnostic sheet but failed to take note of the distributor layout. Plus I just ran the top dead center test from the service manual and found that TDC is about as close to the zero mark on the Kaiser vibration damper as can be. See the photo below. The test was not as easy as the instructions made out, took me a few attempts. Where I though was TDC was not TDC. It was well below. I started filling the cylinder with oil and thought there must be a valve still open? I turned the crankshaft and still didn't' have oil to the bottom of the plug hole. I put more oil in, turned the crankshaft and had oil running over the top of the cylinder head. Used a syringe and pulled most of it out, turned the crankshaft back and forth, added a little oil until I found a spot where the oil was more or less even with the bottom of the spark plug hole. Ran the test again. The forward mark is clockwise where the oil just starts to descend from the bottom of the plug hole, the right mark is counterclockwise where the oil comes up, then just starts to descend. The indicator point is now between the two marks, which should be TDC.

Following section C-22 in the service manual, with cylinder No.1 at TDC, I'm satisified I'm at TDC, the distributor rotor should point downward and forward at about five o'clock. Looks more like four o'clock to me. That photo is below. Maybe I have to change distributors? You can rotate the distributor on the distributor base. How much I'm not sure.

I'm satisified where top dead center is. I'm satisified that the cam timing is where it should be. Not completly satisified with the distributor, but confident enough to continue as it stands. I'm begining to think that these diagnostic sheets give a distributor layout thats more of a rendering than actual in the field set up.

B200EC36-2F89-4BE7-9727-3EBB9658EB82.jpeg

6B4AEADE-8778-488F-8CA2-71D047987BDE.jpeg
 
As others have said if the rotor is not pointing to the correct position for #1 it does not mean the engine will not run right as long as you follow the firing order. My rotor points as yours does to what should be #4 as I discovered once getting into my recently acquired '54. I then put the plug wires in the positions you see in the photo from the manual and it would not start. Motor runs fine and my timing marks line up with TDC.
I usually strive for perfection but given the other things I'm chasing on this truck I'm letting sleeping dogs lie.
 
It’s easy to get the oil pump off by 1 tooth (don’t ask me how I know), but you should still be able to set the timing by using the full range of the two adjustment points on the distributor. If it’s off by more than 1 tooth, you can try reclocking the wires to dial it in, though the layout definitely works better when the oil pump positioned correctly.
 
Lookout Ranch said:
It’s easy to get the oil pump off by 1 tooth (don’t ask me how I know), but you should still be able to set the timing by using the full range of the two adjustment points on the distributor. If it’s off by more than 1 tooth, you can try reclocking the wires to dial it in, though the layout definitely works better when the oil pump positioned correctly.
Click to expand...
I think I'll continue assembling the engine and try to get it fired up. The Continental 226 is such a simple device, with a few exceptions. Hopefully there will be enough forgiveness to get the timing set where it will run within specifications. If not, I'll have to fix it.
 
aearthman said:
I think I'll continue assembling the engine and try to get it fired up. The Continental 226 is such a simple device, with a few exceptions. Hopefully there will be enough forgiveness to get the timing set where it will run within specifications. If not, I'll have to fix it.
Click to expand...
One of the exceptions is the oil pan gasket, in my opinion, (having done a few) which would tip my vote in favor of fixing it before you fill it with oil and run it. If that ship has already sailed, I guess it wouldn’t hurt to proceed.
 
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