tnestell
Precision Fit
Could be worse.
Detergent oil versus non-detergent oil
- Thread starter peewee
- Start date
Rotella or Delo 15W40 work well in older engines with a fresh rebuild... I put a additional additive in at each oil change...Lucas new engine additive. It helps get the lifters and camshaft lobes happy with each other.... The only negative is it seems to extend the time it takes for moly rings to completely seat... With iron rings it makes no difference.
peewee
Sharpest Tool
Very knowlegable reply Thanks for it. I will re-read that several times to really understand.
peewee
rocket
Well Oiled
Back in the Day when I worked in auto repair shops, we said you could tell an engine that had run Pennzoil just by pulling a Valve Cover.
That may or may not have been true. All early oils produced sludge as a by product of combustion and the contaminants already in the oil from manufacturing process.
Almost all oil produced from the turn of the 20th century till 1990 were made from High Paraffinic Group 1 Base Stock . So yes early Pennzoil, Quaker State, Havalin, etc all had wax in them.
In 1990 Chevron developed a Hydrocracking process that resulted in a vastly cleaner and more stable Base Stock known a Group 2
All Chevron products with the ISOSYN label are made from these new Base Stocks, and several other oil companies have followed suit.
More important than that, is the additive package that oil companies mix in with the base stocks. Zinc has been removed from most automotive oils, and even Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T have reduced zinc levels.
DETERGENT. I attended a Chevron seminar in the early 90's and discovered that the detergent additive in Chevron products is NOT a Soap.
It is a molecule that resembles a Polliwog. The molecule attaches itself to bare metal and it's tail wiggles in the flow not allowing anything else to attach near it. WEIRD!!!!
The following is an excerpt from an article from the Society of Tribologist and Lubrication Engineers
For years, the majority of base oils used in lubricants were of Group I quality.1 Group I oils are considered the baseline quality stock made from paraffinic crude oil, and they are produced in a complex and increasingly expensive solvent process. However, they have attractive properties, especially for viscosity and additive solubility. Until recently, Group I base oils were the workhorse in the lubricants market, especially for automotive engine oils. However, three forces have dramatically changed the landscape for Group I oils, for both producers and customers, and the disruption is still playing out.
First, in the early 1990s, Chevron introduced a simpler, cleaner and cheaper catalytic method for producing Group II base stock, considered by many as the next higher quality level. Other technology providers followed with similar catalytic methods. With easier production and competitive prices, Group II base oils became a viable alternative to Group I base oils in many applications. In North America and most of Asia, Group II is now priced at par with Group I on a mass basis and actually somewhat lower on a volume basis because it has lower density for the same kinematic viscosity.
That may or may not have been true. All early oils produced sludge as a by product of combustion and the contaminants already in the oil from manufacturing process.
Almost all oil produced from the turn of the 20th century till 1990 were made from High Paraffinic Group 1 Base Stock . So yes early Pennzoil, Quaker State, Havalin, etc all had wax in them.
In 1990 Chevron developed a Hydrocracking process that resulted in a vastly cleaner and more stable Base Stock known a Group 2
All Chevron products with the ISOSYN label are made from these new Base Stocks, and several other oil companies have followed suit.
More important than that, is the additive package that oil companies mix in with the base stocks. Zinc has been removed from most automotive oils, and even Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T have reduced zinc levels.
DETERGENT. I attended a Chevron seminar in the early 90's and discovered that the detergent additive in Chevron products is NOT a Soap.
It is a molecule that resembles a Polliwog. The molecule attaches itself to bare metal and it's tail wiggles in the flow not allowing anything else to attach near it. WEIRD!!!!
The following is an excerpt from an article from the Society of Tribologist and Lubrication Engineers
For years, the majority of base oils used in lubricants were of Group I quality.1 Group I oils are considered the baseline quality stock made from paraffinic crude oil, and they are produced in a complex and increasingly expensive solvent process. However, they have attractive properties, especially for viscosity and additive solubility. Until recently, Group I base oils were the workhorse in the lubricants market, especially for automotive engine oils. However, three forces have dramatically changed the landscape for Group I oils, for both producers and customers, and the disruption is still playing out.
First, in the early 1990s, Chevron introduced a simpler, cleaner and cheaper catalytic method for producing Group II base stock, considered by many as the next higher quality level. Other technology providers followed with similar catalytic methods. With easier production and competitive prices, Group II base oils became a viable alternative to Group I base oils in many applications. In North America and most of Asia, Group II is now priced at par with Group I on a mass basis and actually somewhat lower on a volume basis because it has lower density for the same kinematic viscosity.
peewee
Sharpest Tool
another informative post
rocket
Well Oiled
I don't own stock, but I should have bought in 1990.
www.chevron.com
Chevron's leadership position premium base oils
Chevron's base oil plant at the Pascagoula refinery in Mississippi helps position Chevron as a leader in premium base oils.
The golden spot for zinc is said to be 1200-1600 PPM which T4 has. I ran Lucas Classic which is 2200 and my brief research shows too much zinc can also be a bad thing in the long run. I decided to play it safe, many with the L/F and Tornado engines seem to have good results with T4.
Last edited:
tommy roy
Knuckle Buster
Ury try
tommy roy
Knuckle Buster
skratch
Well Oiled
Still learning,,,, zink,, what's it purpose, benefits, especially in older engines, available in additives ?
Thanks all,,,
Thanks all,,,
It's a lubricant and the flat tappets need such to perform, last. Some say after initial break in and long running of zinc that the metals take on all the zinc they are going to absorb. Again, "some" say. That's why it's best practice to run a lower zinc oil such as T4 after initial break in, in which it would be beneficial to run something zinc heavy like Lucas or one of the boutique zinc oils with a high content after a rebuild. Then switch to a lower zinc or mix your own.
rocket
Well Oiled
The Effects of Zinc Oil Additives on Older Engines | Rislone
Almost everyone who’s into cars has an older vehicle that they love. Whether it’s the feeling that they get behind the wheel or the way the car looks parked in their driveway, they pour their time and effort into maintaining the car and keeping it looking like it’s just been driven off of the...
www.hyperlube.com
I explain how zinc works like this: It coats metal surfaces at a microscopic level... It gets rubbed away and eliminates most metal to metal contact in doing so. It recoats constantly to replace what is rubbed away..
*The zinc additive is also very helpful in preventing galling of valve stems in engines that were designed to run zinc additive oils.. Galled
valve stems greatly increase valve seat erosion. This is an issue on OHV engine, not so much on flatheads.
*Zinc additive oils can extend the breakin period of chrome or moly/chrome pistion rings... This is not an issue when using
old fashioned iron rings.
*The zinc additive is also very helpful in preventing galling of valve stems in engines that were designed to run zinc additive oils.. Galled
valve stems greatly increase valve seat erosion. This is an issue on OHV engine, not so much on flatheads.
*Zinc additive oils can extend the breakin period of chrome or moly/chrome pistion rings... This is not an issue when using
old fashioned iron rings.
peewee
Sharpest Tool
I read the great article on the importance of zinc additives for our older engines. I am glad I bought Delo 400 motor For My freshly rebuilt 161 F-head. Could not find Rotella T. I am glad I asked people if they would use detergant or non detergant oil in their vintage engines. There are pros and cons on both sides of the arguement so each person must decide for themselves what is best, but for me high quality (heavy duty) (high zinc content oil) seems right to me on my older engine which will not be driven like a daily driver.
Thanks to everyone for their input on this subject.
peewee
diggerG
Well Oiled
Not my thinking. Non detergent oil does it's thing by settling out unwanted particles. Especially if there is no oil filter. Or a bolt on cannister.
diggerG
Dogwood
Bigger Hammer
what brand oil are you using I looked for awhile and finally went to Lucas oil for the high zinc
skratch
Well Oiled
It's NAPA brand, don't know if it has zink or not, got to check.
I switched to Classic Car motor oil. I watched the vid & liked what I heard about the company that produces it and the zinc & viscosity additives. The downside is you have to buy 12qts and $20 shipping Classic Car Motor Oil - Indiana Region Classic Car Club of America (inrccca.org)
Greaser007
Well Oiled
Here is my hair-brain consensus:
I am superstitious, so i run cheap 2-stroke oil (or marvel mystery) with my fuel as a "zinc" substitute for lubing valve stems and for all round extra lube. I ran it (Marvel) for 15-years in a 6.5 TD gmc Suburban as an 'experiment' to see if I could avoid an injection pump replace or refurb. Never pulled the pump even up to 296k miles. (Didn't change fuel or oil filters).
Frequent oil changes of Chevron Dello 400 is what my MO has been for 30-years. I run it in all 4-stroke engines including the riding lawn mowers. No Synthetic here. Well, my wife's 2007 Suburban is cared for by the local Chevy dealer, so who knows what oil they are pumping into it ? (maybe i don't want to know, could be Dollar Saver, who knows). LoL
In my 2-stroke engines i prefer Valvoline blue oil. ( I just like the color ). hahahaha
To see the amount of wear on crankshaft journals of L134 engines I have pulled down, we know those engines didn't wear .005" overnight, but over many outings over decades of use and noisy rod-knocks and piston slap. hahaha
Some of those blocks had ring grooves deep meaning again many decades of ingesting trail dust abrasive.
4-wheeler magazine did a lengthy lab study on the 'best' fuel additive for diesel engines. Do you know the Winner ?
Cheap everyday 2-stroke oil surpassed all other additives for lubricity (including "ocean-spray" and "sea-foam" and all the expensive additives attracting our $$$$'s.
The old machinist in my dad's engine machine shop told my dad many times that Marvel Mystery oil was the only oil that passed his "burn" test (leaving no residuals after the burning of it). This was the old machinist that told me that the tolerances noted in a engine service manual were a good "starting point" and looser is better than tighter.
Most of my engines I rebuild are loose and, may use oil because i decided not to replace all of the valves and just lap them in and replace stem seals. So refurbing a good useable engine for the cost of an engine gasket and seal kit can be thousands of dollars less than $3k for a "refurb", so i expect some oil consumption on some of my rebuilds.
Now, in the case of an engine needing boring, then I will buck up and pay for rotating assembly balancing also, because i have no idea what pieces and parts may have been swapped around by a previous owner. I think with our old Willys engines, we can get by happily with either Detergent or Non-Detergent, and find which viscosity seems to work.
Early this morning I was reading about stroke vs bore vs rod length in a Ford discussion. _ _ moving parts _ _ _ .
FE 352 stroke to 427? | Page 2 | Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum (fordmuscleforums.com)
I have a 66 Mercury FE engine in a '71 Ford f250 and haven't checked the stroke yet, but my guess is it is a 410.
And no, it won't be transplanted into my '46 Willys cj2a. LoL
Greaser out _ _ _ _
I am superstitious, so i run cheap 2-stroke oil (or marvel mystery) with my fuel as a "zinc" substitute for lubing valve stems and for all round extra lube. I ran it (Marvel) for 15-years in a 6.5 TD gmc Suburban as an 'experiment' to see if I could avoid an injection pump replace or refurb. Never pulled the pump even up to 296k miles. (Didn't change fuel or oil filters).
Frequent oil changes of Chevron Dello 400 is what my MO has been for 30-years. I run it in all 4-stroke engines including the riding lawn mowers. No Synthetic here. Well, my wife's 2007 Suburban is cared for by the local Chevy dealer, so who knows what oil they are pumping into it ? (maybe i don't want to know, could be Dollar Saver, who knows). LoL
In my 2-stroke engines i prefer Valvoline blue oil. ( I just like the color ). hahahaha
To see the amount of wear on crankshaft journals of L134 engines I have pulled down, we know those engines didn't wear .005" overnight, but over many outings over decades of use and noisy rod-knocks and piston slap. hahaha
Some of those blocks had ring grooves deep meaning again many decades of ingesting trail dust abrasive.
4-wheeler magazine did a lengthy lab study on the 'best' fuel additive for diesel engines. Do you know the Winner ?
Cheap everyday 2-stroke oil surpassed all other additives for lubricity (including "ocean-spray" and "sea-foam" and all the expensive additives attracting our $$$$'s.
The old machinist in my dad's engine machine shop told my dad many times that Marvel Mystery oil was the only oil that passed his "burn" test (leaving no residuals after the burning of it). This was the old machinist that told me that the tolerances noted in a engine service manual were a good "starting point" and looser is better than tighter.
Most of my engines I rebuild are loose and, may use oil because i decided not to replace all of the valves and just lap them in and replace stem seals. So refurbing a good useable engine for the cost of an engine gasket and seal kit can be thousands of dollars less than $3k for a "refurb", so i expect some oil consumption on some of my rebuilds.
Now, in the case of an engine needing boring, then I will buck up and pay for rotating assembly balancing also, because i have no idea what pieces and parts may have been swapped around by a previous owner. I think with our old Willys engines, we can get by happily with either Detergent or Non-Detergent, and find which viscosity seems to work.
Early this morning I was reading about stroke vs bore vs rod length in a Ford discussion. _ _ moving parts _ _ _ .
FE 352 stroke to 427? | Page 2 | Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum (fordmuscleforums.com)
I have a 66 Mercury FE engine in a '71 Ford f250 and haven't checked the stroke yet, but my guess is it is a 410.
And no, it won't be transplanted into my '46 Willys cj2a. LoL
Greaser out _ _ _ _
Lee Arnold
Sharpest Tool
Getting back to the original question. If you don't know what has been used -remove the pan to check and clean out sludge. If you dont the detergent oil will set all that sludge free to plug up the oil passages. Then use whatever detergent oil you feel is best. start with some cheap stuff and change it after a few hours -this will let the detergent clean out what you can't by just cleaning the pan. You may want to pull the valve cover to also check /clean sludge.