'63 Wagon - questions on 230 OHC Build/Rebuild among other things? Northern NJ

[Thomas Vilardi]

I do not know about other wagons, but my 1956 Had the same rear leaf springs as yours have. OTOH, Both of my other wagons springs had 10 leaves each. My parts wagon, a 2WD also had 10 leaves. These were all 1950 ish.

IHTH, Matt W.

BTW, Nice looking wagon.

I'm clearly math challenged. Went underneath again today with a flashlight and my counting fingers. Back springs actually have 9 leafs. Front springs have 10, so I'm probably looking at the Kaiser Willys Wagon overhaul kit for about $1400. I think that's the best way for me to go.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Out driving around again today.

Second time this happened: Bolt on the corner of the forward corner of Holley Carb where the accelerator cable turns roughly 90-degreed came loose again. Was headed up-hill so had to ease back into a small level parking space and tighten the bolt down. Do not want to completely lock this up but should I treat the threads to some lock-tight to perhaps prevent this from happening again?

Things get pretty hot in that engine area. Is there something better to use? Just don't want to continue to have this "sudden-disconnect-surprise" every few weeks as I'm out with the Wagon.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

I'm confused.There shouldn't be a cable on a 230. @ links with ball joints and a bell crank is it

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

I'm confused.There shouldn't be a cable on a 230. @ links with ball joints and a bell crank is it

You're right - it's not a cable, it's the accelerator linkage where it comes up and hits the corner of the carb. Here's a photo of the rebuilt carb (clean with some hoses and choke cable not yet fastened) with the linkage (rusty) on right. The bolt on the inverted "T" shaped plate has vibrated loose twice. Both times my on the road fix is just use a pair of plyers and screw down - today I'll use a closed wrench but wondered if I should hit the threads with something. There is also a thin copper or brass sleeve that the rusty linkage pivot bolt on the right side goes through. I'm assuming it's original but doesn't seem to do anything to encourage the pivoting. I'm checking angles and might add a washer at the bottom to give the collar on the bottom of the plate something besides the carb body to pivot on.

 

[scramboleer]

Moved from other thread.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Bit of a longer drive today with hills. Went to the Summit NJ Car show (didn't enter, just parked nearby) and when I got back to the Wagon it had found a younger sibling.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Been a little bit of time since I shared things. On another string I asked folks what they would pay for a rear gate that still had a useable attached hinge and not too much rust. The ad I saw was from a guy who lived 45 minutes away and was asking $600 for it. Lots of comments came back - some positive, some negative. I finally offered $500 and he accepted. Here is the final product as of today. Rattle-can Plantation White and Peacock Blue. Hinge was painted on both sides with a clear Por-15, so you're looking at the treated metal and white and blue overspray. You'll note all screw holes except one are still there. I'll get into some ideas I'm having about mounting it in my next post.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

So now I'll move onto the the "old" gate. The big old piano hinge had failed years ago and taken off. A previous owner had welded three door hinges to the exterior of the gate and the rear valance/splash panel. I'm sure it worked for a while but by the time I got it the gate was only hanging on by the upper catches and creative use of bungee cords.

The valance panel now only exists in the center. I broke off the last portion of the old door hinge in the center - that's the small oval central hole you see. The outer portions of the valance are gone. There is an old hitch on the wagon too. The bottom of the door is pretty much just rusted open metal. I actually have the front and back patch panels for it and a new hinge, but getting a complete "new" gate whit working hinge and 99% of the bolt holes intact seemed like the better idea.

Here is a photo of the roached gate. Note how the left side is like a half inch lower than the right.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

So now to get a little deeper. I have to do much of this work myself (generally outside) and have yet to teach myself how to weld, but over the Winter I did get a new Valance panel and rear floor support. I've also been looking at everyone's rear floor repair projects and even found a few things on You-tube. Everyone seems to do things their own way based on how bad things are, but basically the rear floor support is furthest in/recessed, frame bumpers attach to that, the original floor then had a drop-down "lip" and the Valance Panel top portion went over that. This floor/valance "sandwich" is what the gate hinge attached to.

The Valance I got is really nice. Pre-drilled for my gate hinge and everything lines up perfectly. It is also heavier than the original panel that's on the wagon now (or maybe 63 years of rust made it lighter).

Here is a closer photo of the good "new" hinge with the one missing hole on the end.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Now the fun open gate and underside stuff.

The rear floor support is actually intact in the center (this is what the gas tank attaches to also). I know that it actually needs to be completely replaced (that's why I got the replacement parts) but I think I will be giving what's there right now a good coating with a rusty metal encapsulator to keep what remains intact.

Here is a photo with the rear deck open. The surviving rear floor lip is in the center and probably preserved by the support still being intact in the center. The fact that the floor lip has no mounting holes for the gate indicates that the previous owner had probably laid in an L shaped lip or otherwise filled the holes. The floor is also intact in the center (I put a rubber mat on it) and cancered on the left and right rear corners by rear tire splash-up. Right now I just pop riveted in metal temporarily (again I have not yet learned to weld). You also get to see one of the rubber frame to floor/body bushings.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Now the remaining portion of the rear floor support. This quickly starts to look like underwater photos of the wreck of the Titanic, that's why I'm only attaching one at this point. I'll try to describe as best I can. Most of you know what you are looking at but I should also say that a spider web and piece of maple seed (I think) is the unusual thing in the center. So first there are the two brackets holding up the rear of the gas tank. The angled piece on the right is one of the valance panel supports. It does not appear to be attached at the top. The new Valance Panel I have has replacements.

It may have been welded to the remaining center portion of the floor - not sure right now - but it's holding up the tank. Most of the the outer portions of it are gone as you can tell from my previous post where you see the frame to body bushing, but there's a chance the top portion of it still remains.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

So that's my latest process. I bought this because so much of it still remained intact. My first Wagon was an early 50's 2wd Deluxe that had a 4wd system cobbled into it, a CJ 4cyl engine trade-down and in general was an under-powered Franken-Jeep. This one will not be a concourse winner while I have it. I plan to have fun with it, patch what needs to be patched and enjoy rather than take on stuff that I know will keep it off the road.

So here's my question, do the folks here think I can strengthen the rear floor support without tearing it all out, add an "L" to re-enforce the remaining floor lip and then add the valence over that and attach the rear gate to that? I do realize that I will probably have to do some welding but wanted to have some informed opinions about options that don't entail an entire tear-out of the rear several inches of the wagon floor.

Here's my "plein air" workshop on a nice Spring day!

 

[JABJEEP]

I went through the whole disaster of that rear support. It's a very poor design, as far as rust is concerned. My solution was to use structural tubing instead of the aftermarket replacement because the replacement part seemed thinner than the stock part, and the stock part was inadequate in our salty winter climate. What you may not have noticed is that the entire weight of the rear of the wagon rests on that support. On each end are two body mounts where the support is bolted to the frame. For structural reasons it's important to fix that support before you instal the tailgate. That support holds the gas tank, tailgate, and the rear of the body and ties it all in with the frame.

I get into the details, with dimensions, starting at post #272, but if you go back a page or so for background info it might help you decide how to tackle this. You don't weld, but I think you could use some of my measurements and bolt things together to improve what you have there. https://www.oldwillysforum.com/foru...roject-ran-when-parked-58-wagon.31171/page-14 Spoiler alert, jump to post #301 for picture of what I made to replace that flimsy support.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

I went through the whole disaster of that rear support. It's a very poor design, as far as rust is concerned. My solution was to use structural tubing instead of the aftermarket replacement because the replacement part seemed thinner than the stock part, and the stock part was inadequate in our salty winter climate. What you may not have noticed is that the entire weight of the rear of the wagon rests on that support. On each end are two body mounts where the support is bolted to the frame. For structural reasons it's important to fix that support before you instal the tailgate. That support holds the gas tank, tailgate, and the rear of the body and ties it all in with the frame.

I get into the details, with dimensions, starting at post #272, but if you go back a page or so for background info it might help you decide how to tackle this. You don't weld, but I think you could use some of my measurements and bolt things together to improve what you have there. https://www.oldwillysforum.com/foru...roject-ran-when-parked-58-wagon.31171/page-14 Spoiler alert, jump to post #301 for picture of what I made to replace that flimsy support.

Thanks! I've been looking at and saving rear body floor support setups and repairs for a long time. Appreciate your thoughts!

 

[pavel6]

Tom,
Many years ago I did the same job - repair of the tailgate. In the end, "Capt Jack Sparrow", my poet welder installed a piece of angle iron to replace the thin OEM base for the tailgate hinge. I sourced a new stainless steel piano hinge from a truck parts supplier. Rebuilding the floor for the hinge was labour intensive as I wanted to preserve the raised parts, all 10 of them, between the oak strips. A bit too much bondo found its way into the repair, but it looks decent .
In the picture, you can see the angle iron on the tailgate bottom (F) and the rebuilt ridges on the floor (E). There's another full width angle iron under those ridges but you can't see it. The thicker material makes for really strong hinge attachments but is a lot more work.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

I went through the whole disaster of that rear support. It's a very poor design, as far as rust is concerned. My solution was to use structural tubing instead of the aftermarket replacement because the replacement part seemed thinner than the stock part, and the stock part was inadequate in our salty winter climate. What you may not have noticed is that the entire weight of the rear of the wagon rests on that support. On each end are two body mounts where the support is bolted to the frame. For structural reasons it's important to fix that support before you instal the tailgate. That support holds the gas tank, tailgate, and the rear of the body and ties it all in with the frame.

I get into the details, with dimensions, starting at post #272, but if you go back a page or so for background info it might help you decide how to tackle this. You don't weld, but I think you could use some of my measurements and bolt things together to improve what you have there. https://www.oldwillysforum.com/foru...roject-ran-when-parked-58-wagon.31171/page-14 Spoiler alert, jump to post #301 for picture of what I made to replace that flimsy support.

Thanks, I read through your rebuild a few weeks back and captured a bunch of your photos that I've been looking over. Lots of good stuff there!

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Thanks for the counsel and advice on this so far! Here's another photo of the gate channel I took today. The photos actually make things show up better than the naked eye.

I used the new Valance panel (propped up on the left) and marked where some of the screws would have gone with a green pencil X's.

So to me it looks like the previous owner (decades ago) just took a thin piece of sheet metal, bent to an "L" and tacked into place over the top of the valance panel attachment and repainted. Then they attached three wooden door hinges to the exterior of the valance panel (welded) and to the exterior of the gate. The inner floor support is still complete between the frame center, and feeling around today part of the upper portion still remains where it crossed the frame but the portion where the frame bushing would go is gone.

So when the previous owner pulled out the original piano hinge and tacked in the "L" covering the old screw holes, as the floor support continued to rust/fail and move slightly downward on the rear corners the upper portion of the bumper holes on the Valence Panel began to compensate, but as it too rusted and slightly deformed it eventually came to rest on the rear bumper attachment brackets. At the same time the valance bottom came to rest on the ancient hitch attachments (thick angle of steel which you can see in the photo) and the passenger side began to deform against it as the rear floor began to rust away around the fuel filler pipe cover because it was the only thing holding up whatever may have been heavy in the back.

By the time I got the wagon the valance portions to the right and left of the bumper holes were gone as were the portions where the bumper brackets came through, which you can make out in one of the photos I posted previously and below. The rubber grommets did survive. Bushings survived too. So basically the hitch system kept the whole rear floor center from deforming and getting even worse.

Baby steps, but I'm glad I spent some more time today and at least now I'm 99% sure of how things ended up the way they did and why.

 

[JABJEEP]

Going to the extreme worst case scenario....I have a '61 wagon that I've been using for parts. The entire tailgate and surrounding area of the body was long gone before I aquired it. I use it as a semi-mobile shed and at one time had an entire truck drivetrain (226, T90, model 18, both differential assemblies, etc.) stored in the back. With that rear support gone the floor was pulling down so hard on the rest of the body that the rear 1/4 windows were essentially serving as gusset/braces in keeping the shape of the window opening correct. There was so much stress on the glass that one day one of the windows just cracked from the weight. In your case, I could see a pothole causing some of the same stresses unless you get some sort of support back there.

 

[Thomas Vilardi]

Going to the extreme worst case scenario....I have a '61 wagon that I've been using for parts. The entire tailgate and surrounding area of the body was long gone before I aquired it. I use it as a semi-mobile shed and at one time had an entire truck drivetrain (226, T90, model 18, both differential assemblies, etc.) stored in the back. With that rear support gone the floor was pulling down so hard on the rest of the body that the rear 1/4 windows were essentially serving as gusset/braces in keeping the shape of the window opening correct. There was so much stress on the glass that one day one of the windows just cracked from the weight. In your case, I could see a pothole causing some of the same stresses unless you get some sort of support back there.

Thanks for the warning. Just spent an hour under it. I think my temporary fix will be to bolt up some pre-drilled angle iron running from each gas tank hanger, across the frame bushing to the outer walls then screw and nut and bolt it all into place. That should stiffen the back and get some rear body weight back onto the frame as I tackle other projects.

When I was under it I discovered the nut end remains of the old rear gate piano hinge - the guy must have just cut one half of the hinge off and left the other in place! Long Island Sound salt air (where I got it from) is not kind to old metal. Here's what it looked like on Long Island.

 

[pavel6]

Yes, it's important to have a strong base under the rear floor area where the body is supported... hence our use of angle iron, across, to give real strength. This is not how a "purist" would do the repair, with a factory-design panel, but...
And use Stainless hardware + NevrSeize. The angle iron thickness allows you to tap for the SS hardware. I show it on my website (Body page).

One other consideration - if you intend on having a trailer hitch, consider making a custom one that's really strong, bolted to the frame. This might slightly protect the gas tank and also allow future external spare tire attachment (but that's another story).