230 Tornado OHC rebuild in for a Gladiator in Montana

cwdtmmrs

Well Oiled
Jul 19, 2012
2,992
First Name
Tim
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1952
Replace the cam deck if the clearances are bot right. $75 is very cheap. The bearings are not replaceable. I've had good luck using Rocker Arm Rebuilders in Redding Ca. to reface 230 rockers.
Don't try this at home....
 

WA7OPY

Precision Fit
Aug 1, 2019
902
Missoula, mt
First Name
Phil
Willys Model
  1. Jeepster
Willys Year:
  1. 1947
"I may have to freehand the radius" bad idea, find a shop or build a jig...I use a roto table and a surface grinder...Phil
 

Ken_Parkman

Sharpest Tool
Oct 28, 2013
374
Ontario
First Name
Ken
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1962
The bearings are not replaceable in the cam deck, and when I saw that $75 it sounded great - but they did not have any. I have been trolling eBay for a while and was able to find new rockers cheap, and have a new set here. But the cam deck, cam, and rockers on the truck were all excellent, so I decided to take the entire set, leaving all the rockers in the same place and properly matched to the lobes.

What I have seen is as long as the tube below the deck is properly installed the bearings looked good. I had one where the tube was displaced, and that one the cam bearings were not so good. If the rub blocks on the rockers are good and so is the cam I think it best to leave them. If some damage that will take some rethink. The radius on the follower is part of the cam design and motion - not recommended to screw with them. Is there damage?

Edit - sorry you just said it is a new cam. There are rockers for a good price that do show on eBay from time to time.
 
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cwdtmmrs

Well Oiled
Jul 19, 2012
2,992
First Name
Tim
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Offthebeatenpath

Bigger Hammer
Sep 15, 2020
25
Montana
First Name
Josh
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1965
Replace the cam deck if the clearances are bot right. $75 is very cheap. The bearings are not replaceable. I've had good luck using Rocker Arm Rebuilders in Redding Ca. to reface 230 rockers.
Don't try this at home....

I just sent those guys an email, I'll report back what their quote is.
Edit: price is $9 per rocker arm, so $108 plus s&h.

With all due respect, can you guys offer up some explanation why I can't hone the rocker arms myself? We're not talking about boring out cylinder walls here..... I'm still using professional grade equipment, it's just from a different profession. I think they look pretty damn good.
Clearly, the one on the right has not been done, but that's what it looked like when I started.

 
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vintagetrk

Precision Fit
Apr 28, 2018
822
NW Wyoming
First Name
nathan
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1958
That's a heck of a roll of the dice. I get it though. I've had to overcome and improves too! We did it with the 226.

The engine builder couldn't find affordable tappets so we went with the slightly ( Worn) undersized bore of my tappets. He figured with the much better oil these days and some ZDDP additive I should be fine. I wasn't that far off spec so we took the chance. 600 miles on it now and no signs of issues. Given, the 230 is a different animal altogether. It's basically an early Cammer Hemi.

If bore and stroke were more square, this engine would have been an animal for a straight 6 in the early '60s.
 

Ken_Parkman

Sharpest Tool
Oct 28, 2013
374
Ontario
First Name
Ken
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1962
The issue is the follower radius is part of the cam design. Technically the cam profile is mathematically a point contact at the theoretical rocker radius center, further complicated by the follower motion on a pivot from the rocker ball center.

OK - that sounds like gibberish doesn't it?

Cams is complicated - there is a lot of math and it includes the follower type and shape. You have a different rocker shape and it will change the cam profile. The question is how much, and what effect? Dunno.

$9 each sounds pretty good!
 

WA7OPY

Precision Fit
Aug 1, 2019
902
Missoula, mt
First Name
Phil
Willys Model
  1. Jeepster
Willys Year:
  1. 1947
Without precision radius grinding equipment your rocker will look good and be junk, If you dont like the cost of rockers wait until you need to buy a cam and tear it down ...Phil
 

Offthebeatenpath

Bigger Hammer
Sep 15, 2020
25
Montana
First Name
Josh
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1965
The issue is the follower radius is part of the cam design. Technically the cam profile is mathematically a point contact at the theoretical rocker radius center, further complicated by the follower motion on a pivot from the rocker ball center.

OK - that sounds like gibberish doesn't it?

Cams is complicated - there is a lot of math and it includes the follower type and shape. You have a different rocker shape and it will change the cam profile. The question is how much, and what effect? Dunno.

$9 each sounds pretty good!
Exactly! But also, the pivot of the rocker is a ball, which should account for the degree or two that I my regrind may be off. V
The rocker shown in my photo as the “before” wasn’t stopping this motor from running. It was just very worn.
At this point in my build, I think I’m willing to roll the dice on my own labor. I just don’t have a stack of Benjamin’s to pour into this. I’ve already recognized that I’m reducing my compression, but I’d also like to see if this can be done for less than writing a blank check.
 

Offthebeatenpath

Bigger Hammer
Sep 15, 2020
25
Montana
First Name
Josh
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1965
Without precision radius grinding equipment your rocker will look good and be junk, If you dont like the cost of rockers wait until you need to buy a cam and tear it down ...Phil
Again, I’m not disagreeing with you, but please tell me WHY it will be junk.
 

WA7OPY

Precision Fit
Aug 1, 2019
902
Missoula, mt
First Name
Phil
Willys Model
  1. Jeepster
Willys Year:
  1. 1947
How to you know what the radius is and where the center-line lays, and what you ground is the right radius and sqr to the rocker. It takes me hours to set and grind rockers to the right specs and I have the right stuff and the gauges to tell...Phil
 

Offthebeatenpath

Bigger Hammer
Sep 15, 2020
25
Montana
First Name
Josh
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1965
How to you know what the radius is and where the center-line lays, and what you ground is the right radius and sqr to the rocker. It takes me hours to set and grind rockers to the right specs and I have the right stuff and the gauges to tell...Phil
At this point, I'm just playing devil's advocate- Isn't the whole assembly under spring tension from the valve springs? Wouldn't that keep the lobe from the rocker from making intermittent contact with the cam lobe? Sure, the tension may fluctuate some, but at what cost?
Your logic about the correct radius makes sense to me, I'm just trying to weigh how critical it is.
As far as if it's square to the rocker, if I'm within 1-2 degrees of square, the pivots on the stud and valve stem end seem like they should cover that deviation. There's nothing on the rocker to square off of, except the frame, which has no contact in the equation, so it seems like it's not worth overthinking.

Egge Machine said they did not have the information about what profile my cam was reground to. I find that odd, but, whatever.

Walcks 4wd has a 10% off Valentine's day sale going on TODAY (check their FB page, they have sales posted every 2 months or so), so I'm going to get my gasket set ordered up. And what do you know.... they also have rocker arms for $10/each, or $9/each with the sale. So that's the same price as having mine sent off and resurfaced. I'm going to order a set, and if I don't end up needing them I'll put them up on eBay myself.

It's frustrating trying to find parts for this daggone thing! A gasket from here, a bearing from there, pistons from Turkey.... jeepers cats, I'm not trying to build a spaceship.

Edit: I do appreciate the input! This is why I'm here! I haven't found anywhere else to be able to kick these ideas around, and I'm learning on the way.
 

WA7OPY

Precision Fit
Aug 1, 2019
902
Missoula, mt
First Name
Phil
Willys Model
  1. Jeepster
Willys Year:
  1. 1947
I rebuild my first 230 in 1969, for my first jeep a 1962 2wd panel (wish I still had it ), Parts were a sob then, if not for the M715 there would be no parts now... With that said in 1988 I scraped 30 + M715 and could not give the engines away, (wish I still had them now). It was a perky little runner with lots of tork...Phil
 

Ken_Parkman

Sharpest Tool
Oct 28, 2013
374
Ontario
First Name
Ken
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1962
If you change the rocker radius centerpoint you will change the rocker ratio, loads, and lift. If you change the radius you will change the duration, and potentially the calculus; the derivatives of motion, acceleration, jerk, and jounce - which are actually mathematical terms.

It might work. The cam is mild enough so any changes in duration and lift may not matter much. There is definitely a risk of cam damage if the mathematics goes bad. It is really hard to know. With cams there is always a risk even if everything is right.
 

cwdtmmrs

Well Oiled
Jul 19, 2012
2,992
First Name
Tim
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1952
I'm just trying to weigh how critical it is.
Everything on these motors is critical. No doubt why the short production run and why so many were swapped out for SBC's. These are great motors if you can get them RIGHT and IF you can keep the oil leaks down.
Walcks 4wd has a 10% off Valentine's day sale going on TODAY (check their FB page, they have sales posted every 2 months or so), so I'm going to get my gasket set ordered up. And what do you know.... they also have rocker arms for $10/each, or $9/each with the sale. So that's the same price as having mine sent off and resurfaced. I'm going to order a set, and if I don't end up needing them I'll put them up on eBay myself.
Are Walcks rockers NOS or aftermarket? If they are aftermarket, do yourself a favor and send your originals off to be reground.
It's frustrating trying to find parts for this daggone thing! A gasket from here, a bearing from there, pistons from Turkey.... jeepers cats, I'm not trying to build a spaceship.
Welcome to the 6-230 OHC world! Again, probably why so many wound up in the iron pile. The 230 OHC was really ahead of it's time, but by the time most of the "fixes" were in, it had a bad reputation.
 

Tilatobawillys

Well Oiled
All-Star
Jun 17, 2016
1,222
Elk Creek
First Name
Dale
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1956
Replace the cam deck if the clearances are bot right. $75 is very cheap. The bearings are not replaceable. I've had good luck using Rocker Arm Rebuilders in Redding Ca. to reface 230 rockers.
Don't try this at home....

Curious question for you Tim (and Ken): do you recommend doing this on 230 engines no matter what or just if the arm/cam surfaces are as rough as pictured above?
 

Ira

Bigger Hammer
Sep 26, 2020
122
Los Angeles
First Name
Ira
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1960
I would guess on this mild of a motor, the biggest risk is destroying the cam. The wrong angle or surface finish is probably all it takes. In your favor is low RPM and soft springs. But if the rockers were hardened to start and you've ground through that, it will not be good. I know nothing about these engines, but that's all common stuff. On the other side, looks like you did an excellent job refinishing it so it might work perfect.

Ira
 

cwdtmmrs

Well Oiled
Jul 19, 2012
2,992
First Name
Tim
Willys Model
  1. Wagon
Willys Year:
  1. 1952
Curious question for you Tim (and Ken): do you recommend doing this on 230 engines no matter what or just if the arm/cam surfaces are as rough as pictured above?

If I have the Head apart I would send the rockers off for inspection/repair.
 

Offthebeatenpath

Bigger Hammer
Sep 15, 2020
25
Montana
First Name
Josh
Willys Model
  1. Pickup
Willys Year:
  1. 1965
It's been a slow but eventful couple weeks, here's an update:

Kanter sent me the last remaining puzzle piece of my build, the rod bearings. But, they didn't put any packing materials in the box, so when they arrived, all 12 pieces of the bearing kit had bounced around against one another all the way from New Jersey to Montana. They were all scratched and gouged. I sent an email to Kanter, and they shipped out a well-wrapped replacement set right away. It's disappointing to have a full set of NOS bearings that will wind up in the trash can because of their negligence.


My gasket kit and rocker arms showed up from Walck's, and arrived in excellent condition.
The rocker arms are in fact NOS, so they ultimately cost me less than resurfacing my old arms would have.


So I dropped all of my block parts off at the machine shop so Wes can get started putting it all back together!
It has been a full year and a half since I started down this road, and it feels pretty damn good to finally be back on course.
I was so focused on bringing all of the new parts I'd stockpiled that I completely forgot about bringing my connecting rods, so I'll do that next week.
Here's a pic of the block casting number that I'll be using. It was the block that originally came in my truck. As you can see, it's the same as the other block, the 928790 series.
 
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