I looked at Pete’s site and his Y is also a repop. No NOS listed as a choice.
1956 Jeep CJ5 Brake Lines and Fittings
- Thread starter sirpete
- Start date
diggerG
Well Oiled
Want me to send you a clean used one? I have a bucket full. And re flare your lines using new tubing. It’s a fallacy that new is always better than good used.
diggereG
diggereG
sirpete
Gear Grinder
So Bitzf4 ended up sending me one of his old Y's and an old fitting/line, along with a spare new Y that he had (huge thank you for that!).
From what I can tell, both my new Y an the one that Bitzf4 sent are out of spec because the female part of the thread is too wide.
Can anyone else here give me a sanity check to make sure I'm not making a mistake?
According to machingdoctor.com, (https://www.machiningdoctor.com/threadinfo/?tid=39#2B) the 3/4-24 UNF 2B Internal D1 (Minor Diameter) needs to be between 8.382mm - 8.636mm. (3B spec has this as 8.379mm - 8.565mm).
The old Y that Bitzf4 pulled from his Jeep is 8.39mm (in spec).
New Y (both the one I bought from Kaiser Willy's and the spare one Bitzf4 sent me) are 8.89mm, which puts them 0.254mm outside of the spec.
The old and new male 3/8-24 fittings nearly identical (9.29mm new fitting, 9.31mm old fitting). They're both on the very bottom end of the tolerance (9.314mm - 9.497mm according to machingdoctor.com).
So best I can tell, the fittings are good (borderline), but the female thread on the new Y's are way out.
The quality control on the new Y's also look bad, with some very large burrs still left in the hole (see the last pic).
Since the master cylider on these older jeeps is single reservoir, this will create a fairly high risk of brake failure, as there's oly 0.235mm on either side of the thread catching.
From what I can tell, both my new Y an the one that Bitzf4 sent are out of spec because the female part of the thread is too wide.
Can anyone else here give me a sanity check to make sure I'm not making a mistake?
According to machingdoctor.com, (https://www.machiningdoctor.com/threadinfo/?tid=39#2B) the 3/4-24 UNF 2B Internal D1 (Minor Diameter) needs to be between 8.382mm - 8.636mm. (3B spec has this as 8.379mm - 8.565mm).
The old Y that Bitzf4 pulled from his Jeep is 8.39mm (in spec).
New Y (both the one I bought from Kaiser Willy's and the spare one Bitzf4 sent me) are 8.89mm, which puts them 0.254mm outside of the spec.
The old and new male 3/8-24 fittings nearly identical (9.29mm new fitting, 9.31mm old fitting). They're both on the very bottom end of the tolerance (9.314mm - 9.497mm according to machingdoctor.com).
So best I can tell, the fittings are good (borderline), but the female thread on the new Y's are way out.
The quality control on the new Y's also look bad, with some very large burrs still left in the hole (see the last pic).
Since the master cylider on these older jeeps is single reservoir, this will create a fairly high risk of brake failure, as there's oly 0.235mm on either side of the thread catching.
Attachments
I reached out to KW since they are now Walck and Mike is sending me a replacement Y. I told him about the slop in the threads or something and he told me they had just installed one of their stock on an MB without issue. So no idea if they will look into it further. Once I get the new one I can check it
Bitz
sirpete
Gear Grinder
I think I might retap the Y's I have here with the M10x1mm thread and use the 10x1 brake fittings. Might be the safest way to go. Once everything on the jeep is working I can eventually upgrade to a dual reservoir master cylinder.
diggerG
Well Oiled
I emailed you yesterday about this. I know they are different. You didn’t read my email. ???????? I’ve been doing this for 50 years You can also call me. 1 508 384 3495
diggerG
diggerG
diggerG
Well Oiled
I came up with about 4 (used) of the CJ “Y” fittings. And about 40 others from our collection of working on cars and trucks for about 80 years. More different ones than I imagined we collected. All from dad, his buddies, my brother and all his “Fonzie” motorhead buddies, the neighbors kids, then Me!!
diggerG
Here is the comparison between an OEM casting, and the new one that KW outsourced (made on an island off the coast of China). Back in the day….Vendors sweated the Master Cylinder casting, “Y” fitting, two copper washers, and the “Bolt” all together, as you see in the photo of the OEM I just removed.
The OEM does not have the “alignment spots” at the center top on sides of the Master Cylinder. These spots get in the way, as you try to reinstall the new master cylinder, with limited space. I am going to grind them off, while I have the KW master cylinder apart to sweat the “Y” pipe.
I started out removing the two flare nuts from the “Y” fitting attached to the master cylinder, a few drops of brake fluid leaked out, but most had leaked out long ago. Next I removed the brake light switch. I wrapped the switch in a shop towel, and used a small pair of vice grips to break it free. Only us enough closing pressure to break the sensor switch free, then screw out the sensor. As others have mentioned, remove the cotter pins holding the linkage ( note that the pins are pushed in from the top, and spread apart at the bottom, remember these pins will need to come out again some day, so only a minor bending is needed. Next you’ll remove the two 9/16th bolts. The bolt threads are extra long, which make it almost unbearable to back out. Your patients will pay off. Once both bolts are completely backed out of the thread, the master cylinder becomes lose, but you’ll find it does not have room to drop out. The bolts are in the way. The object of this next step is to first remove the front 9/16th bolt first. It will come out, but it’s tight. Don’t bend anything, it will clear, and the front bolt is out. About this time, the master cylinder plunger will fall out, as you try to get the master cylinder rear bolt enough clearance, to slide out of the master cylinder bolt holes. If you use a 3/8 inch flare nut wrench, the lines come off very easy, and the line and flare nut suffer no damage. I don’t see a need at this point to replace the brake lines.
I hope this reassures those replacing there CJ-3/CJ-5 master cylinder that simply bolting the “Y” fitting to the Master Cylinder using compression alone to seal the copper washers is not enough, (they all will leak otherwise).
If anyone might be interested in a casting from the original from below, with “Made in USA”, there is a possibility I might put together a private run (for profit), made in the USA.
The OEM does not have the “alignment spots” at the center top on sides of the Master Cylinder. These spots get in the way, as you try to reinstall the new master cylinder, with limited space. I am going to grind them off, while I have the KW master cylinder apart to sweat the “Y” pipe.
I started out removing the two flare nuts from the “Y” fitting attached to the master cylinder, a few drops of brake fluid leaked out, but most had leaked out long ago. Next I removed the brake light switch. I wrapped the switch in a shop towel, and used a small pair of vice grips to break it free. Only us enough closing pressure to break the sensor switch free, then screw out the sensor. As others have mentioned, remove the cotter pins holding the linkage ( note that the pins are pushed in from the top, and spread apart at the bottom, remember these pins will need to come out again some day, so only a minor bending is needed. Next you’ll remove the two 9/16th bolts. The bolt threads are extra long, which make it almost unbearable to back out. Your patients will pay off. Once both bolts are completely backed out of the thread, the master cylinder becomes lose, but you’ll find it does not have room to drop out. The bolts are in the way. The object of this next step is to first remove the front 9/16th bolt first. It will come out, but it’s tight. Don’t bend anything, it will clear, and the front bolt is out. About this time, the master cylinder plunger will fall out, as you try to get the master cylinder rear bolt enough clearance, to slide out of the master cylinder bolt holes. If you use a 3/8 inch flare nut wrench, the lines come off very easy, and the line and flare nut suffer no damage. I don’t see a need at this point to replace the brake lines.
I hope this reassures those replacing there CJ-3/CJ-5 master cylinder that simply bolting the “Y” fitting to the Master Cylinder using compression alone to seal the copper washers is not enough, (they all will leak otherwise).
If anyone might be interested in a casting from the original from below, with “Made in USA”, there is a possibility I might put together a private run (for profit), made in the USA.
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Twenty some years ago I replaced the original master in the 1955 CJ-5 with a reproduction. I still have the original and may get it sleeved someday but that is getting kind of expensive.
The now 20 year old reproduction started to leak excessively and so I replaced it last year with yet another reproduction while I had the transmission out for a clutch/pressure plate/throw out replacement.
I just went and looked and though there aren't any visible drops on the "Y" fitting, it is wet to the touch.
I just want to clarify what you mean by sweating the "Y" to the master.
I know it involves heating. Do you heat the "Y" as you tighten the banjo bolt, or heat it and the washers while separated and then install?
Thanks for the description of a proper install!
Randy
The now 20 year old reproduction started to leak excessively and so I replaced it last year with yet another reproduction while I had the transmission out for a clutch/pressure plate/throw out replacement.
I just went and looked and though there aren't any visible drops on the "Y" fitting, it is wet to the touch.
I just want to clarify what you mean by sweating the "Y" to the master.
I know it involves heating. Do you heat the "Y" as you tighten the banjo bolt, or heat it and the washers while separated and then install?
Thanks for the description of a proper install!
Randy
I’m suggesting torque the bolt down with the copper washers on the bench, then heat both materials (casting, bolt, washers and “Y” fitting. Similar to sweating copper pipe. The Solder will run into the pipe thread, and seal up the copper washers, to the brass “Y” fitting, and casting. Remember, use flux only where needed, and tape off what you can. The Master cylinder needs to be taken apart, so you don’t damage the rubber rings inside the cylinder, Might want a rebuild kit on hand, and install new rubber. Have to be careful, and use just enough flux to allow the solder penetrate a few threads. The threads will hold every thing in place. The Solder is used to seal it up, so it no longer leaks.
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I’ve never heard of sweating those fittings before. Is that what they did in the old days?
I wasn’t around in 1950. This master cylinder I took out, is from an Arizona barn find. Solid body, original rubber from 1950. Been under a carport its entire life. Second owner bought it from original owner in 2002. He put maybe 25 miles on it, using the parking brake to stop it. Second owner got it “running” with a few tune-up/fuel pump parts. The Jeep speedometer is showing 72k miles.
The other thing interesting is the Jeep has its original aluminum hard top (1950 CJ-3). Rubber and glass unbroken. Not sure about the front windscreen….it might have been replaced once in the 1950’s. There is a mismatch of tires, 16”x 6”. 3 are “ Military” other two do not have those markings. The spare has a slit in the side wall, and doesn’t hold air.
First thing first, I’m going to get the brakes working, and adjust/replace the the Emergency Brake (that was the reason the previous owner stoped driving it 5-15 mph on the service forest roads….no brakes other than the emergency brake for about the 25 miles he parked the Jeep after the first year, and would just start it it up. My goal like others on hear is to keep it stock as possible, fix the brakes so it will stop if we push it around the shop. Then send out the radiator for a complete refurbish, and do a compression test on that 72,000 mile original engine. I’ll up date you all after I get the Master Cylinder put together, and installed. I’ll either start a brake replacement thread, or add to one that is started when that happens.
For now I’m ordering a new “Y” pipe, copper washers, and the bolt. Probably won’t get back for a couple weeks when parts arrive, and I have time.
- Sep 20, 2017
- 8,689
- First Name
- Jeff
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Pickup
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1955
- 1958
- 1962
No, never, at least not by any professional mechanic.
and copper tubing, and compression fittings, and other fittings for water were also never used on brake lines unless Bubba was under the jeep. Some things are unsafe and need to be called out before someone gets hurt, or worse.
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My 51 CJ-3a, had and still has a cast aluminum brake master.
I sent it to Apple Hydraulics and they sleeved it. Was able to find a new replacement cap as well, after quite a lot of searching.
This would never have been soldered...I bought it from the 2nd owner, who had it since 1959.
I sent it to Apple Hydraulics and they sleeved it. Was able to find a new replacement cap as well, after quite a lot of searching.
This would never have been soldered...I bought it from the 2nd owner, who had it since 1959.
diggerG
Well Oiled
There is a Jeep that has 2 different dia threads for that fitting and another Jeep that has 2 identical. They both look the same if you arent careful. AND FYI Don’t splice into old lines they may not (probably not if you are from New England) be much good. go all new or if one looks good all along check carefully and try it out. But be very careful, it’s easy to cross thread, and then you are in trouble.
diggerG
diggerG