Vintage Don
Well Oiled
So does anyone have any insight on the correct shimming on the Ross gearbox? Can't find anything about it. Where the steering shaft enters the box, tightening the roller bearings.
Ross steering gear box rebuild - bushings
- Thread starter Vintage Don
- Start date
tnestell
Precision Fit
I like my tight steer. While I don't think that it eliminates the slight play in the box, I do believe that it makes it less noticable.
Greaser007
Well Oiled
Dana, my guess is that gadget has an adjustable spring damper inside of it. Hmm yeah _ _ _
Don, I agree with you 100% on the "toe-in" adjustment.
I will try to be brief here, but I have concluded over the years that the bigger-the-tire, the more toe-in required, because big tires like to "plow" down the road. On my '02 Subaru WRX, I don't take my car to any "Alignment" shops. I adjust individually, the tie-rod arms to keep the tire wear even, and if I have the shops do me an "alignment", the tires don't wear even.
It is almost like the young-techies, haven't been mentored on "fine-tuning" but just by-the-book.
As time moves along, more and more O.E.M. "original equipment manufacturers" parts become obsolete. What we then have to choose from is used or aftermarket parts. As I work on older vehicles, it seems that nowadays we have to make slight modifications to aftermarket parts to make them work properly. I have not yet rebuilt a Ross steering box, but in the past did play with the Saginaw PS steering boxes 35-years ago.
Don, I agree with you 100% on the "toe-in" adjustment.
I will try to be brief here, but I have concluded over the years that the bigger-the-tire, the more toe-in required, because big tires like to "plow" down the road. On my '02 Subaru WRX, I don't take my car to any "Alignment" shops. I adjust individually, the tie-rod arms to keep the tire wear even, and if I have the shops do me an "alignment", the tires don't wear even.
It is almost like the young-techies, haven't been mentored on "fine-tuning" but just by-the-book.
As time moves along, more and more O.E.M. "original equipment manufacturers" parts become obsolete. What we then have to choose from is used or aftermarket parts. As I work on older vehicles, it seems that nowadays we have to make slight modifications to aftermarket parts to make them work properly. I have not yet rebuilt a Ross steering box, but in the past did play with the Saginaw PS steering boxes 35-years ago.
cwdtmmrs
Well Oiled
- Jul 19, 2012
- 5,926
- First Name
- Tim
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Willys Year:
- 1952
I have to agree. I have put about 150K miles on my Ross box and I am guessing there was 100K miles on it when I bought my wagon. I have changed the sector due to worn pins and changed bushings and the seal once. I have changed the pitman arm because of wear on the ball too. I have only used synthetic wheel bearing grease and not oil in the past 30 years. Same in the knuckles since I do not like seeps/drips. I have the 6-230 with the bell crank steering. I am content with anything less than 2" play ( 1 inch either way) at the steering wheel. The bell crank steering is far superior to the earlier arrangement, but there are 8 places for wear to affect that play vs. the 3 places in the earlier bottom of the knuckle system. The only time I have ever seen any play at the Ross box is when the sector pins were worn out. The most important thing is to get the sector exactly on the high part of the cam with the wheels straight ahead. I installed a Tight-Steer a couple thousand miles ago, but am not yet convinced it does much.
cwdtmmrs
Well Oiled
- Jul 19, 2012
- 5,926
- First Name
- Tim
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Willys Year:
- 1952
I run 1/8" with 7.50R-16 or 235/85R16 tires and my wagon tracks straight down the SoCal freeways @ 70 mph.
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
OK, we've got even MORE dimensional issues, and this one matters! This is important to you guys getting ready to do this rebuild!
First, I kept looking for information on how to set up the pre-load / shimming, on the steering column shaft into the gear box housing. I eventually found that info, and spent a solid hour reading an endless, super-detailed string on another forum about the most meticulous rebuild you can imagine, in every possible detail.
I'll copy a link to it here, with some warnings. First of all - it's LONG. The guy giving the advice is Moses Ludel, who apparently literally "wrote the book" on Jeep repairs, the so-called Jeep Bible. That's a different topic. Another warning about the link - on my phone, this link opens fine, but on the desktop computer for some reason it comes up with "403 Forbidden." So you may or may not see it...
https://forums.4wdmechanix.com/topi...-tl-cam-and-lever-steering-gear/#comment-4666
OK, one very important thing I learned - these replacement worm gear bearing races are a problem!!!
You remember above, I was grinding down the OD, just to get them to fit through the hole and into the housing. It's worse than that. They are substantially thicker/taller than the originals, and it matters. Here's a photo of my replacement races installed, and the original beside it. (more below)
The difference is about .035" - a lot. I measured .365" on the new ones, .329" on the originals.
So when you install the worm with the bearings, it actually STICKS OUT of the housing significantly. A few photos of the issue, steadily zooming in so you can see what's happening -
And guess what - that's protruding around .035" x 2 - the same as the thickness difference.
Now what makes this a real problem is, this is the surface where you are going to shim to set your bearing tightness - except now - you CAN'T!!! The bearing sticking out actually prevents proper shimming, because the cap can't come in far enough to be flush.
So I'm going to clean up the originals and re-use them, obviously.
First, I kept looking for information on how to set up the pre-load / shimming, on the steering column shaft into the gear box housing. I eventually found that info, and spent a solid hour reading an endless, super-detailed string on another forum about the most meticulous rebuild you can imagine, in every possible detail.
I'll copy a link to it here, with some warnings. First of all - it's LONG. The guy giving the advice is Moses Ludel, who apparently literally "wrote the book" on Jeep repairs, the so-called Jeep Bible. That's a different topic. Another warning about the link - on my phone, this link opens fine, but on the desktop computer for some reason it comes up with "403 Forbidden." So you may or may not see it...
https://forums.4wdmechanix.com/topi...-tl-cam-and-lever-steering-gear/#comment-4666
OK, one very important thing I learned - these replacement worm gear bearing races are a problem!!!
You remember above, I was grinding down the OD, just to get them to fit through the hole and into the housing. It's worse than that. They are substantially thicker/taller than the originals, and it matters. Here's a photo of my replacement races installed, and the original beside it. (more below)
The difference is about .035" - a lot. I measured .365" on the new ones, .329" on the originals.
So when you install the worm with the bearings, it actually STICKS OUT of the housing significantly. A few photos of the issue, steadily zooming in so you can see what's happening -
And guess what - that's protruding around .035" x 2 - the same as the thickness difference.
Now what makes this a real problem is, this is the surface where you are going to shim to set your bearing tightness - except now - you CAN'T!!! The bearing sticking out actually prevents proper shimming, because the cap can't come in far enough to be flush.
So I'm going to clean up the originals and re-use them, obviously.
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Greaser007
Well Oiled
Don, thanks for the latest Link, I bookmarked it so I can find it when I pull my Ross box.
the new photos are great, and thank you for bringing this to our attention. omg, one thing after another, right !
I would be nice to get that box rebuilt before summer begins. _ _ _ just teasing.
I have been getting frequent "403 forbidden" on links lately. I wonder if it is a Microsoft Edge thing, or something to do with shared-devices conflicts. Must be some sort of firewall or filter. I did get the link to open for me to bookmark.
Jim, yes, radials on the car. I run LT radials on my stock trailer so they don't throw treads like the SST tires do.
What I had done in the past was to jack up each front tire and scribe them while spinning slow. Then measure back and front.
Seems that quite a few service manuals for 4x's call for approx. 1/8-inch toe-in.
I relate that to a "starting-point" like with paint reduction where the can tells you an approx. reduction, which is a "starting-point" and then fine-tune from there. Tire pressure too could have a big bearing on tracking.
the new photos are great, and thank you for bringing this to our attention. omg, one thing after another, right !
I would be nice to get that box rebuilt before summer begins. _ _ _ just teasing.
I have been getting frequent "403 forbidden" on links lately. I wonder if it is a Microsoft Edge thing, or something to do with shared-devices conflicts. Must be some sort of firewall or filter. I did get the link to open for me to bookmark.
Jim, yes, radials on the car. I run LT radials on my stock trailer so they don't throw treads like the SST tires do.
What I had done in the past was to jack up each front tire and scribe them while spinning slow. Then measure back and front.
Seems that quite a few service manuals for 4x's call for approx. 1/8-inch toe-in.
I relate that to a "starting-point" like with paint reduction where the can tells you an approx. reduction, which is a "starting-point" and then fine-tune from there. Tire pressure too could have a big bearing on tracking.
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Glad to see you found Moses Ludel. I have yet to meet anyone that knows more about the Ross TL-12 steering gear. I had him rebuild my box a few years ago and couldn't be happier. It is as if I'm using a recirculating ball design rather than a worm and sector. The only play in the system is due to the springs at each end of the drag link. Once the pitman and steering arms are modified to accept spherical bearing that play will be gone.
After reading about what you did in order to get the pitman arm to fit on the sector shaft, I encourage to to read these two articles on Moses' site.
https://www.4wdmechanix.com/Ross-TL-Steering-Gear-Replacement-Parts?r=1
https://www.4wdmechanix.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Ross-TL-12-Pitman-Arm-Installation-Rev-A1.pdf Revison (B) increased assembly torque to 300 lb-ft.
Since it does't cost more to make a part to the correct dimension why are they the wrong size? I don't believe it is due to process variation because (in the case of sector shafts) none that I have seen fit correctly. I believe it s because the manufacturer is simply making the part without an engineering drawing that calls out proper dimensions, tolerances, finishes, etc. It's the engineering that the aftermarket is not willing to pay for that results in unusable parts. Just my opinion...
KLankford
Well Oiled
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
No, those surfaces should be tight together and flush when there are no shims installed - then the shims are used to CREATE that spacing, or gap - in a variable way, to the extent necessary - to preload the bearings.
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Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Thank you, Bill Kuran, for sharing that paper and study. The Engineer in me loves it!
My primary take-aways are: I need to revisit my initial rework of the splines, get them a bit deeper yet - and therefore get the sector a bit farther into the Pitman Arm, with your 1/16" to 1/8" gap being optimal. And possibly further reduce the OD at the splines. (I also had difficulty getting meaningful measurements on the splines for the most part. I was interested in seeing how much material I was succeeding in removing with the little Dremel cut-off tool.)
And that my findings with these parts are not unusual.
And now I have a torque value for the nut!
I took the original Pitman as being the most accurate piece (the trucks use a longer, very hard to find Pitman), and I therefore worked only on the sector shaft splines, it being the replacement part. Besides, much easier to work on OD splines than inside the ID on the Pitman!
I was already convinced that it would be counter productive to have the sector go ALL THE WAY into the Pitman, and thus lose the effectiveness of the nut being torqued. You've confirmed that.
I did not realize that the hardening was perhaps only .030 deep. I do not know how deep my little cutter was getting - but on the other hand, to NOT do the trimming would result in significantly less insertion distance, which I feel is probably a weaker fit up yet.
And I learned that by 1960, you get 4 blind splines to help position the fit up. Mine are all the same, I get 36 chances to fit it! Ha.
And finally - that it definitely matters! Thanks again for sharing.
My primary take-aways are: I need to revisit my initial rework of the splines, get them a bit deeper yet - and therefore get the sector a bit farther into the Pitman Arm, with your 1/16" to 1/8" gap being optimal. And possibly further reduce the OD at the splines. (I also had difficulty getting meaningful measurements on the splines for the most part. I was interested in seeing how much material I was succeeding in removing with the little Dremel cut-off tool.)
And that my findings with these parts are not unusual.
And now I have a torque value for the nut!
I took the original Pitman as being the most accurate piece (the trucks use a longer, very hard to find Pitman), and I therefore worked only on the sector shaft splines, it being the replacement part. Besides, much easier to work on OD splines than inside the ID on the Pitman!
I was already convinced that it would be counter productive to have the sector go ALL THE WAY into the Pitman, and thus lose the effectiveness of the nut being torqued. You've confirmed that.
I did not realize that the hardening was perhaps only .030 deep. I do not know how deep my little cutter was getting - but on the other hand, to NOT do the trimming would result in significantly less insertion distance, which I feel is probably a weaker fit up yet.
And I learned that by 1960, you get 4 blind splines to help position the fit up. Mine are all the same, I get 36 chances to fit it! Ha.
And finally - that it definitely matters! Thanks again for sharing.
I don't remember in detail, but I think the upper part of my steering worm may have been a little proud, like yours. I used the shim pack to create a fit that was snug enough to keep the worm from moving up and down when turning the wheel against the resistance of the sector shaft, but not tight.
nobling
Sharpest Tool
LOL. Don't touch that dial! Stay tuned. I am sure there is more to follow. If it aint broke...don't fix it! On my Willys "perfect" is defined as "close enough".You guys are making me crazy!! No I am going to have to revisit my steering box, which I though was just fine!
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
I've got to make some corrections to things I have said above. I switched back to the original bearing races and learned some things today...
First, though, in response to the above two posts - sorry, cwdtmmrs! I was already crazy, so it doesn't matter with me. I'd agree with nobling (that name took me a second to figure out!) - if you're not having problems and are happy with it, then it ain't broke....
OK, so I changed out the "thicker" replacement bearing races, based on my belief that they would not let the column shaft-to-gearbox cover seat all the way flush. And I found that they still wanted to stick out past flush - much to my surprise! But...
(compare this to the earlier photo with the new races above in Post # 28 - looks to be about the same protrusion)
but when I installed the 3 bolts that hold it down, it came down to flush without any real torque. (Below)
Now the truth is, I did not try putting the cover on with the new races installed a few days ago, because I was freaked out when I found the protrusion. (I just "knew" that couldn't be right.... haha) I might take the time tomorrow to switch them back one more time, just to see if they would torque all the way down to flat, too. They might.
But sincere apologies to KLankford above - it may well be that since the shims have a big enough ID hole to clear the bearing, that it is acceptable to have them sticking out like this.
On the other hand - when I pulled it down flush, the bearings were so tight the shaft would not turn. Which of course is why it needs shims in the first place. My original shim pack was .022" and I reinstalled that to see, and it was pretty close to right. I do believe that the bigger gap above with the new bearing races was MORE than .022, so the shims would not be effective with that big of a gap. So the jury is out, I guess.
Then, thanks to Bill Kuran's posting, I went back to work on the splines on the Pitman / sector shaft joint. I found that grinding very lightly on the OD improved things more than trying to deepen the splines. I put it in the vise and torqued it to 135 ft-lbs. Bottom line, I can now get it together to achieve the 1/8" gap, as recommended.
Now, I probably shouldn't admit this next part - but I will. After getting things tight and far enough on finally, then I had to take the sector back out of the Pittman arm. And obviously, it was now pretty tight.... so like a complete amateur, I forgot to put a nut on the threads on the end of the sector to protect them. I DID use a brass hammer.... But I managed to warp over the first couple of threads on one side pretty good. Damn! Took me 20 minutes with a file and then a die to get them right again. Thankfully, they are outside of where the nut will be in the "installed and tightened" position, so no harm. Felt pretty dumb, though.
First, though, in response to the above two posts - sorry, cwdtmmrs! I was already crazy, so it doesn't matter with me. I'd agree with nobling (that name took me a second to figure out!) - if you're not having problems and are happy with it, then it ain't broke....
OK, so I changed out the "thicker" replacement bearing races, based on my belief that they would not let the column shaft-to-gearbox cover seat all the way flush. And I found that they still wanted to stick out past flush - much to my surprise! But...
(compare this to the earlier photo with the new races above in Post # 28 - looks to be about the same protrusion)
but when I installed the 3 bolts that hold it down, it came down to flush without any real torque. (Below)
Now the truth is, I did not try putting the cover on with the new races installed a few days ago, because I was freaked out when I found the protrusion. (I just "knew" that couldn't be right.... haha) I might take the time tomorrow to switch them back one more time, just to see if they would torque all the way down to flat, too. They might.
But sincere apologies to KLankford above - it may well be that since the shims have a big enough ID hole to clear the bearing, that it is acceptable to have them sticking out like this.
On the other hand - when I pulled it down flush, the bearings were so tight the shaft would not turn. Which of course is why it needs shims in the first place. My original shim pack was .022" and I reinstalled that to see, and it was pretty close to right. I do believe that the bigger gap above with the new bearing races was MORE than .022, so the shims would not be effective with that big of a gap. So the jury is out, I guess.
Then, thanks to Bill Kuran's posting, I went back to work on the splines on the Pitman / sector shaft joint. I found that grinding very lightly on the OD improved things more than trying to deepen the splines. I put it in the vise and torqued it to 135 ft-lbs. Bottom line, I can now get it together to achieve the 1/8" gap, as recommended.
Now, I probably shouldn't admit this next part - but I will. After getting things tight and far enough on finally, then I had to take the sector back out of the Pittman arm. And obviously, it was now pretty tight.... so like a complete amateur, I forgot to put a nut on the threads on the end of the sector to protect them. I DID use a brass hammer.... But I managed to warp over the first couple of threads on one side pretty good. Damn! Took me 20 minutes with a file and then a die to get them right again. Thankfully, they are outside of where the nut will be in the "installed and tightened" position, so no harm. Felt pretty dumb, though.
Vintage Don
Well Oiled
Because I was on the bench with just the two pieces. If I'd have put a nut part-way on, and hit it properly square with the brass hammer, I would have been fine. (Besides, I don't have a Pitman arm puller, but I have a brass hammer. I suppose that's the biggest reason.)
See, I knew I shouldn't have admitted that...
See, I knew I shouldn't have admitted that...