Registration headache !

marten

Sharpest Tool
Mar 15, 2015
327
new mexico
First Name
carl
Willys Model
  1. CJ
Willys Year:
  1. 1946
Well I bought my wagon about a month ago. Had to leave town and now I am attempting to register it. MVD in New Mexico says they can not register it because back in 1982 it was list as "non-repairable"!...even though I have a clean title from Arizona. MVD in NM wont budge! The guy I bought it from has had it for 15 years, no problem. NM said I could register it in another state....lot of good that does me. I offered to let it be inspected and start all over...no dice. So I called AZ and they said they would work on it...I hope so because the title has no reference to the non reparable brand. Any thoughts? I will call AZ at the end of the day today...again. What a headache! All DMV, MVD are tide together now so they see everything. If AZ can't fix it a law suit maybe in order.....Title says good to go, data base says no....
Help
 
I am in New Mexico also.
A couple years a go I had a jeep CJ the I hade a clean NM title and same thing happened.
What I found out the the clerk at the MVD did not enter the complete number. or looked a the type of car it was It came back stolen out of CA.
We checked on it and found out a Honda motorcycle had the same serial number .

I would go to one of the state MVD not the independent one.

Andrew In Rio Rancho.
you can contact me.
 
Yes, Talked with AZ, they think it is a Peter Built with the same vin... they are trying to get the fix on it, go figure. Problem is somewhere down the line they only used the last five numbers for the vin on the wagon.. Muddy water here. I found the vin plate by the door, painted over and covered up, it has the complete number, so....... Going to call the NM state office now. AZ is sure polite and helpful, lets see how NM is. What a headache. Last resort use the complete vin number and start over...this would be costly I think??
 
I had the exact same problem with a Morbark wood chipper and a boat in an unmentioned state. Can you imagine trying to go fishing in a wood chipper? I said to He** with it and just attached a you know what. pulled it for 15 years. nobody ever asked.
diggerG
 
Here in WV, you can do a VIN Verification, where a state trooper comes out, looks at the VIN plate, and signs a form verifying that the VIN number is on the vehicle. I had to go through this to register my wagon, since the VIN doesn't fit the modern 17 digit format and couldn't be run through the WV DMV's computer system. Not sure if NM does this, but it might be helpful.

Andy
 
Here in Kansas the first step is for the DMV to clearly establish who is in charge. I was careful to steer clear of purchasing any vehicle which didn't have a clear title but that apparently didn't matter. I bought a truck registered & titled in MN and I also had a Washington state license plate & registration from 2015 to help show the provenance. None of that seemed to matter to the DMV and they weren't willing to accept the VIN because it was on a removable plate. The engine had been swapped to a Chevy 350, so no Willys number documented on the block. I hadn't searched the frame for a serial number because it was clearly documented on the data plate. Fortunately the frame hadn't been swapped out and, after a quick internet check, I was able to find the SN on the frame. Although the previous 2 states listed the vehicle with a 10 digit SN, Kansas finally agreed to issued a title but with only the last 5 numbers because that's all that is stamped into the frame! Good luck to the next owner!
 
Here in California they say it helps to find and work with a DMV office that has a lot of experience with old/classic restoration project cars. My local DMV happens to be one of those and they were quite accommodating when I bought a not-recently-registered project pickup out of state.
 
All of the above situations further validate why alleged "motor vehicle" bureaus are epics fails. With the sheer number of vehicles on the road, why do these agencies shorten VIN numbers on titles? Not to mention our beloved antiques have much shorter VIN numbers that the cars of today which have 17 digits.

Unfortunately, we are all mislead into believing we are drivers of motor vehicles when the truth is we are simply trying to enjoy our antique conveyances for travel and pleasure. I'm pretty sure that none of us have a "motor" powering any of our antiques. A motor runs on electricity, an engine runs on combustible fuel.

All that being said, I do not "transfer title" into my name. I get the title from the seller, have it notarized that I purchased the antique, and leave it at that in my fire safe lock box. Works best when the antique was purchased from a seller in another state, that way I do not relinquish true ownership to the State in exchange for a piece of paper that says I am permitted by said State to "operate on the roadways".

I do not operate on roadways, I only travel. When I travel, I am not for hire. Year plates are your friend, all my running antiques have them.
 
Here in California they say it helps to find and work with a DMV office that has a lot of experience with old/classic restoration project cars. My local DMV happens to be one of those and they were quite accommodating when I bought a not-recently-registered project pickup out of state.

Yeah, DMV jokes are frequent in society, but I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them, even here in the big city. A bit of patience as well as figuring out who the “old car” person is behind the counter helps. In California, the “statement of facts” form is often a great tool for getting registration. Also the VIN verification for out-of-state/system is simple and requires a peace officer’s review and approval. And if DMV turns into a gong show, the local AAA office is extremely helpful.
 
Here in Idaho, I find it matters a great deal who answers the phone. I'm working on getting a conditional title for a '71 Honda CB350 that we pulled from a field (with permission). It was last titled in 1991, and has changed hands many times as a parts bike. It's complete enough to make roadworthy, so I want to get it titled.
The first time I called the state DMV to start the process, I was met with a bit of hostility, and a "there is no way to do this" attitude, with the clerk telling me that the only way would be to get the person who I got it from to get a title, and if they didn't have one, then the person they got it from would have to get it, etc. on down the line clear back to 1991. Of course this is BS, so I politely ended the call, and called back a couple of hours later. The second person was completely helpful, and layed out the process, emailing me links to forms, etc. Turns out that getting a title is fairly easy here, as long as you follow the all of the steps outlined by the state.

Pete
 
Chris, what do you use for plates, and where do you drive? Will it all withstand a discussion with a policeman? I thought an un-transferred title usually was not a very good thing because it is less positively yours.
 
Well I have just been getting the run around. AZ knows they blew it and are in a bind to make a fix, trying to put it off on NM. I told them NM wont have anything to do with it, not their problem. Techies are working on it in AZ.....Don't call us we will call you.....this concerns me. Go figure.
 
These title stories all sound the same makes no difference what state you are in. Georgia doesn't title older vehicles, you only need a bill of sale and proof of taxes paid. Or that's the way it used to be unless they have changed also. I went to get the tag for my Ford GPW-Willys Cj2a and had a SC title from a PO signed and it was titled as a 1944 Ford GPW JEEP. But the PO had signed the title with a blue ink pin, which in SC is an unforgivable sin, it must be signed with black ink!! Now I live in SC and was getting a SC tag. So the nice lady who was working on this for me had the same last name as the PO who had signed the title, I don't think she even noticed and I certainly didn't point it out. It just added to the drama. So after her telling me that Ford didn't make Jeeps that only Jeep made Jeeps, again I kept my cool, and explained to her that during WW11 Ford made Jeeps for the war effort under Willys patent and this was one of them. After a look from her boss that had daggers and other words written all over it that I won't repeat, she signed off on it. The moral is don't give up and dealing with any DMV is better done face to face. Good luck!!:cool:
 
Chris, what do you use for plates, and where do you drive? Will it all withstand a discussion with a policeman? I thought an un-transferred title usually was not a very good thing because it is less positively yours.

Hi Martin, Yes the whole title, registration and plates thing is quite the story. Before I answer your questions please let me explain a bit.
As with many things, understanding the history is a grand help. In a nutshell, when vehicles became commonplace, roadways were improved and many of those improvements were made by members of the local communities who needed to use said roadways. As commerce increased and more trucks, taxis and coaches were on the roadways, these vehicles caused more wear to the roadways. That is when Commercial Licensing started and the "driver" was born soon after the turn of the century. This generated monies needed to maintain roadways. A driver was legally defined in 1914 as:
"One employed in conducting or operating a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle who is compensated...." (Black's Law Dictionary 3rd Edition)
That definition held until 1951 when the following was added to the definition:
"The activity licensed by a State DMV and in conjunction with which individuals must submit personal information to the DMV - the operation of motor vehicles - is itself integrally related to interstate commerce." (Black's Law Dictionary 4th Edition)
Obviously as time marched on, there were more cars on the road and trucks got even larger. Eventually the various States determined that everyone was an "operator" and started to license everybody who used roadways, generating monies for the States.

Well that sure changed things! A license is defined as permission to that which is illegal. Therefore having a license is primary evidence that you intended to violate the law! Does an Amish buggy need plates? No. Can they use roadways? Yes. Can a farmer move his tractor from one field to another down the roadway without plates? Yes they can. That brings us to a Supreme Court decision:
"The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another's rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct." (Thompson v.Smith, 154 SE 579, 11 American Jurisprudence, Constitutional Law, section 329, page 1135)

Now that we see the background here, I can answer your questions.
1. For plates, I use "expired" former State issued plates that match the year of the vehicle. For instance, my 61 CJ5 has an Ohio 1961 plate on it, my 67 Commando has a 1967 Ohio plate and so on.
2. I do not "drive" anymore. I am not for hire as a "driver" nor an "operator". I am merely a man exercising his right to freely travel responsibly.
3. I have only had one encounter with a policeman within the 8 years I have been a traveler. When I encountered him, I did not answer any of his questions because answering his question legally constitutes an "oral contract" in the State of Ohio. So, instead I question the officer politely. Examples: Are you making an assumption that you have encountered an operator for hire? Do you have any evidence I am driving for hire on this roadway? They will try to trick you into answering one of his questions, but you need to remain calm and continue the polite questioning of the officer. If you get nervous or can't think of another question to ask the old fall back question is: "Am I free to go?" Eventually the officer realized I had done no wrong and I was not going to stop asking questions and he sent me on my way.
4. Possession is still 9/10ths of the law. So possession of the vehicle and having notarized State paperwork validates the fact it is indeed most positively yours and not State property you have permission to use.

Hope that answers you questions Martin. I appreciate your questions and I am not intending to get off-topic of Willys discussion here, but this matter does relate to our enjoyment and use of our beloved Willys vehicles.:)
 
As a practicing lawyer I wouldn’t condone driving without any registration or insurance regardless, that’s a shortcut to the impound lot and then you won’t have the necessary ownership documents to get it released. A signed title from prior owner would never work, possession doesn’t mean anything with vehicles, the registration is key and that requires a title here in Ohio. I’ve seen many a nice vehicle go to salvage due to improper paperwork. In fact I represent many large tow companies and they constantly have vehicles where the owners cannot meet the burden to claim them.

I also run Ohio original year plates and you are required to keep the issued white plate within the vehicle and only display the white one on demand. The reason is that the national plate database cannot interpret them.

I recently had a sheriff buddy run my year plate and he couldn’t locate any records, rather the issued white plate is the one that they would require for verification.

I’ve been stopped twice due to this but all was good as soon as the white plate was ran.

You will also experience issues accessing military, federal and other secured facilities that utilize automated plate readers, to the machines they will see essentially a blank plate.

All state police cars have LPR, most large cities have them too and before long every police car will be scanning thousands of them constantly.

In closing I’d save any legal arguments for the courtroom, cops could careless about case law and legal acrobatics.


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I agree, most officers would have no thoughts the subject of "oral contracts", and many would just call a tow truck. Then "possession" is suddenly something that they have, and you do not. Good luck with it. Enjoy.
 
Went to a different MVD just to see if their story matched up. Man are they secretive. The vin number is not my issue/problem, it is the title number . The title number is the the one that keeps black balling me so to speak. I suspect AZ is trying to figure a way around this and issue a new title number. We shall see.
 
You may want to research if it is possible to get a court order title from a bill of sale. This is possible in my state of Indiana, and is how I obtained title for my 1950 Willys pickup. Cost me $100 and a little bit of time, but I now have a title and can legally license it.

Commando- So, all the legal ramblings aside, how do you insure a vehicle you don't legally own? Or do you not have state required insurance, either? Might want to watch out on the not transferring title. We have a guy in our town who thinks alone the lines of you. The town impounded his truck a week ago. He does not have legal transferred title in his name, so he has no legal claim to the truck, and cannot free it from impound. The previous owner told him to get lost on helping him. What you say may technically be correct, but registration money saved will never cover legal fees, not to mention the towing and impound, on a point of principle.
 
Well it just keeps getting better. I may have to go the rout of a whole new title. AZ gave up on me. NM put me on hold for an hour than to voice mail. Called Idaho where the real junk vehicle is they passed me to their investigator...only one in their state...three days or more till he calls me back...we shall see.. NM said go to my insurance co and get a surety bond? And on we go. Unbelievable they keep passing the buck. The other vehicle is a peter built 1968, mine a 57 Jeep willys wagon...looking them right in the face........



You may want to research if it is possible to get a court order title from a bill of sale. This is possible in my state of Indiana, and is how I obtained title for my 1950 Willys pickup. Cost me $100 and a little bit of time, but I now have a title and can legally license it.

Commando- So, all the legal ramblings aside, how do you insure a vehicle you don't legally own? Or do you not have state required insurance, either? Might want to watch out on the not transferring title. We have a guy in our town who thinks alone the lines of you. The town impounded his truck a week ago. He does not have legal transferred title in his name, so he has no legal claim to the truck, and cannot free it from impound. The previous owner told him to get lost on helping him. What you say may technically be correct, but registration money saved will never cover legal fees, not to mention the towing and impound, on a point of principle.
 
Commando- So, all the legal ramblings aside, how do you insure a vehicle you don't legally own?

In Ohio they have what is called an SR-22 Bond. It insures you in any vehicle used, owned or not owned.

Well it just keeps getting better. I may have to go the rout of a whole new title. AZ gave up on me. NM put me on hold for an hour than to voice mail. Called Idaho where the real junk vehicle is they passed me to their investigator...only one in their state...three days or more till he calls me back...we shall see.. NM said go to my insurance co and get a surety bond? And on we go. Unbelievable they keep passing the buck. The other vehicle is a peter built 1968, mine a 57 Jeep willys wagon...looking them right in the face........

OK Martin, if NM said to get a surety bond, I'm quite sure that would be similar to an Ohio SR-22 Bond. With that bond, I would find myself a set of 1957 NM Truck plates and behave well when I was on the road!

P.S. Just rolled past two officers this morning that were leaving a store and I waived to them as they nodded to their like of my CJ5! They proceeded to pull out friom the store and get right behind me at the next traffic light. But, it's just like Scott stated above - "I also run Ohio original year plates and you are required to keep the issued white plate [in Ohio the antique or historical plate] within the vehicle and only display the white one on demand. The reason is that the national plate database cannot interpret them."
So what all that means is that it would be more work for a policeman to "run" the plate. Unless you pull some kind of dumb stunt while driving, many policemen actually like Jeeps/old cars in general and won't bother you. That's not to say my heart has pounded when I see a patrol car behind me!
 
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