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View Full Version : The Official Engine swap info and picture thread - please contribute!



Jones
04-21-2013, 01:34 PM
I will ask forgiveness from the guys who like to keep things stock for creating this thread, however for many folks - myself included - stock isn't a practical solution for motor-vation.

Lets see those engine swaps out there, and lets hear some of the important details (and I dont mean horsepower bragging), like how well does it FUNCTION in a Willys? What did you have to modify? How did you overcome cooling challenges? What trans did you use? What kind of drivability do you have, what kind of mpg do you get? These are the kinds of questions I see asked on this forum over and over when it comes to engine swaps...lets answer them here, in one thread!

Jones
04-21-2013, 01:53 PM
For starters, here is the truck I recently acquired. It has what I was told is a Pontiac 389 in it, with a Pontiac auto trans. Despite the mess shown in the photo, the actual install is pretty clean. They did a good job with the mounts, and although the firewall and trans tunnel was modified, the fabrication was pretty nicely done. Too bad they didn't do as nice of a job with the wiring and cables. But Im surprised how nicely the big Pontiac seems to fit in there.

Since this truck cab and bed were on another frame at one time and used for drag racing (no really, drag racing) the firewall and trans tunnel mods may have been made for previous engine swaps and to get the cab down lower on the frame.

Viability of this swap? In my opinion, zilch, as it meant turning the truck into a two wheel drive, at least in this case. For that reason, Ill be swapping something else in...possibly a 283 chevy (because I have a good runner, plus I know where a parts truck is with a chevy to willys trans adapter, trans, and transfer case). I've only had this engine running for about 30 seconds at a time due to fuel delivery issues, so I cannot comment on drivability, how it has effected the rest of the drivetrain, mpg, reliability, and so on.

Cooling must have been an issue as the previous owner installed an electric pusher fan in front of the radiator (cutting the grill in the process) in addition to the stock fan on the engine.

What I'd really like to swap in is a 4.2l Jeep six with a five speed trans and transfer case (or maybe a 4.0 if I cant find a good 4.2L), but for some reason, you don't see that swap being done. Anyone know why?

scramboleer
04-21-2013, 03:37 PM
Hi Terry,

Many transplanted engines have their challenges, although some (e.g. Chevy 4.3 V6) are easier than others. The Jeep/AMC 4.2L and 4.0L are too big for an easy transplant. I believe you also have to punch out the firewall to make them fit. This may vary depending on the year of the Willys as the ones in the 1960s with the 230 OHC six have more pronounced indent in the firewall which would make them easier for a transplant. I think Willys Overland also released an official tech bulletin outlining all of the things that would have to change to switch from a 226 to a 230 in an earlier model. Few things are impossible. It depends on the size or your wallet and/or the amount of fabrication one is willing to do.

Cheers,



Scramboleer

beewhisper1
04-21-2013, 05:12 PM
I will ask forgiveness from the guys who like to keep things stock for creating this thread, however for many folks - myself included - stock isn't a practical solution for motor-vation.

Lets see those engine swaps out there, and lets hear some of the important details (and I dont mean horsepower bragging), like how well does it FUNCTION in a Willys? What did you have to modify? How did you overcome cooling challenges? What trans did you use? What kind of drivability do you have, what kind of mpg do you get? These are the kinds of questions I see asked on this forum over and over when it comes to engine swaps...lets answer them here, in one thread!

GREAT idea! Hope it takes. And so I'll ask, why not use the 4.3L GM engine? There's so much press on this it's tough to avoid it as a first choice, IMHO
Chet

Jones
04-21-2013, 05:40 PM
GREAT idea! Hope it takes. And so I'll ask, why not use the 4.3L GM engine? There's so much press on this it's tough to avoid it as a first choice, IMHO
Chet

Thanks, glad you like the idea. I hope others find it useful too, as it seems like engine swap questions are constantly flying around this message board.

As to why Im thinking of a straight six, its kind of a goofy reason but the SOUND of a straight six just seems more "right" for this kind of old truck. Plus I love the low end grunt of the 4.2l we have in our '89 Jeep Wrangler, and it seems perfectly suited with the five speed. I know the pickup is a heavier vehicle, though.

I really dont have anything against a GM v6 at all, and from many standpoints, I know it is a practical and economical choice. I may very well end up going that direction, and I would love to hear from people who have gone that route to hear what they think, but want to explore other options out there, too.

I guess I just kind of like them old six bangers, for some reason, though.

tjs68
04-21-2013, 09:27 PM
Ford 250ci straight six from a 75 Ford Maverick. I would recommend using a Falcon bellhousing to get the starter higher up on the RH side.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/willys%20jeep/2506cyl.jpg (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/tjs69_photos/media/willys%20jeep/2506cyl.jpg.html)

Jones
04-21-2013, 10:17 PM
Ford 250ci straight six from a 75 Ford Maverick. I would recommend using a Falcon bellhousing to get the starter higher up on the RH side.

Clean looking swap.

I read in one of your other posts that you were able to use that engine without firewall mods, and while retaining the stock fan...?

Was your Willys originally a six-cylinder truck? What trans did you use, or did you use an adapter?

How do you like the engine's driveability?

dahreno
04-21-2013, 11:11 PM
You sent me a PM about the 2001 - 4.0 I put in my 62 Wagon , so I figured I would post it here for everyone else. I installed a H.O. 4.0 with a aw4 - 4 speed auto tranny , Dana 300 transfere case , power steering and power brakes . I also installed a Dana 30 front diff. with disc brakes .All the parts came from a Cherokee so , it was all Jeep parts . It did take a little firewall massaging to get it to fit but , very minor . The engine only had 49 thousand miles on it when installed and by the way , it was fuel injected so there was a computer installed .It ran like a brand new engine . It seemed like it was meant for this truck , it was perfect . I also did a spring over with stock springs and it had 33 " tires . By the way , it was 4wd . Probably the biggest problem I had was the spring over conversion as it never really steered that great afterward . I used degree shims which helped a lot but , it wasn't perfect .It got good gas mileage , tranny shifted perfect , never overheated and the power for the wagon was perfect .I ended up selling the vehicle as the amount of rust it had was way to much and I sold it to an owner of a body shop .I had it for ten years . I had it up to 90 once on the freeway but , that was crazy , and I only did it once to see if it could do it ! I am sure it would do over a hundred . I loved that wagon and would have drove it anywhere . I also lost a lot of money when I sold it but , you never get out of them whet you put into them . The off road experience with it was priceless . I now have another wagon and it is a 1961 . It has a little rust but , nothing like the other one had . It has a 383 stroker sbc v8 , power steering , sm 465 4 speed manual , sm 205 transfere case , Dana 44 front , and a 12 bolt rear diff. I made new panels for the interior out of 1/4 " Masonite and recovered them also installed boom mat inside all body panels . Also installed bucket seats in the front . The wagon sits on a K5 blazer chassis and the motor fits great with no firewall mods . It is using the factory K5 radiator with dual electric fans but , gets a little warm on hot days and I will probably end up getting a good radiator , high flow water pump and better elec. fans .Gas mileage isn't all that great but , not to bad if I take it easy but , it doesn't help that I run 38.5" x 15" tires . I will also get fuel injection for this one even though the Holley h/p series 750 carb. run good , it has a hard time operating at angles as I use this wagon for 4 wheeling .The power to weight ratio was probably better with the other wagon with the 4.0 , vs. the monster I have now as it puts out 550 h/p , but man is it fun ! http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w463/dahreno/newwillys010.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/dahreno/media/newwillys010.jpg.html)

germain
04-22-2013, 01:28 AM
My 61 wagon has been on this forum since 2009, and it is of the resto-mod variety. Since the request was for engine swap information and pics, I will only address that.
Swapped in engine is a 1999 Chevy 5.7L V8 and 4L80E trans from a rollover, within 6 months of being sold new. Engine held in place with Advance Adapters mounts spec'd for a Willys wagon or truck. I boxed the frame behind the mounts and welded the mounts to the frame. The front crossmember was trimmed at the rear flange to clear the crank pulley which allowed clearance for the trans and distributor without firewall rework. Elec fans now handle the cooling. I recently put in a wider radiator with a different shroud. I cut about 1.5" off the passenger headlight bucket to allow room for the radiator. I know it's a compromise, but I want to see how well it handles the TX summer heat and humidity, then I can address a more sanitary install.(I missed the opportunity last summer). I still have the A/C condenser in front of the radiator, but if it overheats I can relocate it with a fan to underside driver side.
How does it drive? The computer was reflashed to bypass the passkey feature, and some performance programming was done while they had it. It has not been on a dyno. I put a K&N on it. It runs by computer, starts every time. it runs 70/75 mph , and only gets scary in 15+ mph winds. City:13/Hwy:17, due in part to the sleek body design and 33:12.50's.. I am moving to Houston, hotter than Dallas, and will report on my cooling issues. Another important thing I learned, if it has a ground wire, run a dedicated ground to a buss bar, and have the buss well tied to the battery.

Gary

ARLEN
04-22-2013, 03:33 AM
7187 7188

Here is my 58 Wagon with a 355 SMALL Block Chevy. The engine mount on the right is a Hurst Front Mount which they started making in the mid 50s and are still available today. That is what I used on my 58. People have been swapping engines into the wagons since they first came out.When the first V8 came out in 55, a lot of people were putting them in their Willys. I have a 47 Delivery I'm working on right now that came to me with a 55 Chevy rear, trans and Hurst front mount.

scramboleer
04-22-2013, 11:01 AM
I never saw my Grandpa's '55 Wagon, but he swapped in a Chevy 235 six using some jury-rigged set of adapters and a big hammer. Don't have any engine shots, but here are two of the wagon:

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/scramboleer/Old%20Willys%20pics/Familyhistory1967Christmasatthecabin.jpg (http://s1150.photobucket.com/user/scramboleer/media/Old%20Willys%20pics/Familyhistory1967Christmasatthecabin.jpg.html)

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/scramboleer/Old%20Willys%20pics/Familyhistory-1955WillysWagonworkingatcabin.jpg (http://s1150.photobucket.com/user/scramboleer/media/Old%20Willys%20pics/Familyhistory-1955WillysWagonworkingatcabin.jpg.html)


Scramboleer

Jones
04-22-2013, 11:04 AM
You sent me a PM about the 2001 - 4.0 I put in my 62 Wagon , so I figured I would post it here for everyone else. I installed a H.O. 4.0 with a aw4 - 4 speed auto tranny , Dana 300 transfere case , power steering and power brakes . I also installed a Dana 30 front diff. with disc brakes .All the parts came from a Cherokee so , it was all Jeep parts .It got good gas mileage , tranny shifted perfect , never overheated and the power for the wagon was perfect .

Thanks for posting about this here. As you know, the Jeep straight six swap was something I was particularly interested in doing myself, and the info you provided here was exactly what I needed. Sounds like your current wagon with the stroker 383 is quite a nice ride, too.



7187 7188

Here is my 58 Wagon with a 355 SMALL Block Chevy. The engine mount on the right is a Hurst Front Mount which they started making in the mid 50s and are still available today. That is what I used on my 58. People have been swapping engines into the wagons since they first came out.When the first V8 came out in 55, a lot of people were putting them in their Willys. I have a 47 Delivery I'm working on right now that came to me with a 55 Chevy rear, trans and Hurst front mount.

I have to agree about the engine swap legacy of Willys trucks, as I've seen plenty that have had other engines swapped in thirty or forty years ago, and sometimes more.

I used that same Hurst engine mount in an engine swap for my '40 Ford pickup because it was an old-school part, but found they work best with shorter manual transmissions that with long automatics, as the later tend to mount at the tail shaft and leave a long, unsupported span, which can result in cracked trans housings, especially in a 4x4. They sure are handy mounts, though, and look right in older trucks.


My 61 wagon has been on this forum since 2009 ... Swapped in engine is a 1999 Chevy 5.7L V8 and 4L80E trans from a rollover, within 6 months of being sold new. Engine held in place with Advance Adapters mounts spec'd for a Willys wagon or truck. I boxed the frame behind the mounts and welded the mounts to the frame. The front crossmember was trimmed at the rear flange to clear the crank pulley which allowed clearance for the trans and distributor without firewall rework. Elec fans now handle the cooling. I recently put in a wider radiator with a different shroud...Another important thing I learned, if it has a ground wire, run a dedicated ground to a buss bar, and have the buss well tied to the battery. Gary

I would imagine this is swap, along with a Chevy Vortec v6, represent the swap most people are interested in doing these days due to the fuel injection and overdrive auto trans. Thanks for posting so many details, especially that one about the ground wire and buss bar. Those kind of details are invaluable to first timers trying to replicate your swap.

tjs68
04-22-2013, 04:48 PM
I swapped in the 250 six with a trans-dapt adapter that I purchased off of E-bay. I retained all of the stock drivetrain except for the engine, and everything is in the stock locations.

The truck was an original 226 L6 that my father has used for snowplowing for over 40 years.

The 250 ci engine, seems to have quite a bit more power than the original did. This is the Maverick/Falcon 6 cylinder engine, not to be confused with the 240 or the 300 engine. The 240/300 engines are too long, without extensive mods. The "small six" was also available as the 171 and 200 ci models. These were even available in the pre-'78 Ford Bronco's too. The 250 is basically a 200 with more stroke (Which required a taller engine block).

I think it is an excellent candidate for these old trucks. It still has that straight six sound too !

Link to swap : http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469612&highlight=250+Ford+cylinder

Willy48
04-22-2013, 05:17 PM
Here's a couple of pics of the Buick 231 in my '48 2wd wagon. With the exception of the Holley intake and a Q-jet from a Buick Electra 4.1, it's stock, from a '79 Buick Century. It's backed by a TH350 trans and a Monte Carlo SS rear. The radiator is a stock Willys with a fabricated shroud and an electric fan. I won't be able to tell you how it runs yet, but will in a couple of weeks

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/le10pics/Febsnow020_zps943a446c.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/le10pics/media/Febsnow020_zps943a446c.jpg.html)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/le10pics/Febsnow022_zps924b086b.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/le10pics/media/Febsnow022_zps924b086b.jpg.html)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/le10pics/Febsnow021_zps3336bc1c.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/le10pics/media/Febsnow021_zps3336bc1c.jpg.html)

Later...

Lee

Jones
04-23-2013, 11:49 AM
Very clean V6 installation! These engines really do fit great. I wonder if anyone out there has ever done a swap with a Buick odd-fire v6?

Jones
04-23-2013, 11:53 AM
I swapped in the 250 six with a trans-dapt adapter that I purchased off of E-bay. I retained all of the stock drivetrain except for the engine, and everything is in the stock locations ... I think it is an excellent candidate for these old trucks. It still has that straight six sound too !

Link to swap : http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469612&highlight=250+Ford+cylinder

Thanks for posting this link to your Ford six banger swap...lots of great technical information ! Although Ive rarely seen this swap done, it definitely seems like an excellent alternative.

Johnny Mac
04-23-2013, 07:49 PM
727572767277And to round out the mix, here are some pics of my GM4.3L V6 and 4L60E going in. The hardest part of this swap is the harness and PTM. What to leave in, what to take out. Lot's and lot's of room. Compared to putting a small block in a '67 Mini Cooper this is a piece of cake!
Cheers!
Johnny Mac
Oh, and yeah, yeah, I know something is missing from my front axle!

willys way
04-23-2013, 08:31 PM
Very clean V6 installation! These engines really do fit great. I wonder if anyone out there has ever done a swap with a Buick odd-fire v6?

I believe all the older Buick V6 engines were odd fire and many were used in Jeeps. In fact some were factory installed around 1970 in CJ's and Commando's. The old Buick odd fire is a stronger engine due to the crankshaft configuration. The even fire engine is a smoother running engine, especially at idle.

hotrodbob
04-24-2013, 01:25 AM
302 Ford with C4 fits good in my wagon.
.7300

Jones
04-24-2013, 01:00 PM
I believe all the older Buick V6 engines were odd fire and many were used in Jeeps. In fact some were factory installed around 1970 in CJ's and Commando's. The old Buick odd fire is a stronger engine due to the crankshaft configuration. The even fire engine is a smoother running engine, especially at idle.

Exactly...so in some ways it is kind of a Jeep engine swap into a Willys, but for some reason it's not one that seems to be done, either back in the day or now. Its not a real big engine (225 and 231 ci, I think?) but evidently they make decent power and torque, and as you noted, they used them in Commandos, so maybe it would be a decent match for a Willys if someone didnt need a powerhouse engine.

... plus they have that cool odd-fire rumble to them.

Jones
04-24-2013, 01:21 PM
One thing I have to consider when making a decision with a new engine is MPG. While I realize nobody owns a Willys or drives a 4x4 for the MPG, with gas so expensive these days, it becomes a consideration.

Aside from diesel engine swaps, I've noticed that some of the v8 swaps get around 18 mpg, ironically in both carburated and electronic fuel injected forms. That seems pretty dang good to me. From what I understand, the straight sixes can get that too.

I haven't heard what the v6 engines get, but I've never heard of a Willys getting better than 18 mpg with any gas engine. I know gearing, (lack of) aerodynamics, tire size, etc all contribute to lower mpg figures, but its kind of funny that it doesn't seem to improve with the smaller engines, including the stock engines.

Any thoughts on this?

hotrodbob
04-24-2013, 02:56 PM
Exactly...so in some ways it is kind of a Jeep engine swap into a Willys, but for some reason it's not one that seems to be done, either back in the day or now. Its not a real big engine (225 and 231 ci, I think?) but evidently they make decent power and torque, and as you noted, they used them in Commandos, so maybe it would be a decent match for a Willys if someone didnt need a powerhouse engine.

... plus they have that cool odd-fire rumble to them.

Remember, when GM changed it to even fire, they also Turbo Charged it. Service blocks are/were available up to 252 CU. IN. Stay away from the early 60's V6 (198 cu in 1961-63) was in Buick and Olds compacts and the bell housing bolt pattern is different and will only work with limited (Dyna-Flow) Buick/Olds transmissions from the Skylark. The 225 cu in came out in 1964 and uses all the Buick/Olds/Cadilac Turbo 350 style trans, NOT THE CHEVY Trans. Jeep used it from 1967-71 (225). GM bought it back in the early 70's and bored it out to 231 Cu. In.. Use the odd fire 231 CU.In. motors (1975-76) or the even fire (1977-on). 1980 was the first 252 cu.in. Buick V6. GM also produced a 3.0 Ltr. and 3.2 Ltr. Buick style V6. Stay away from them as the 3.0 ltr. was FRONT DRIVE ONLY and has a different bell housing pattern that will not work in rear wheel drive configurations. The 3.2 will work, but you sacrifice power.

The 231 (3.8 Ltr.)is good for up to 400HP on the street with great reliability.

Pat Ganahl has written a very good book on these engines called V6 Performance. It covers Buick/Ford/Chevy V6's.

Pivnic
04-24-2013, 03:55 PM
Here is my story of my 57 Willys Pickup (Floyd) Repower project. The first thing I did was extensive research on the Internet to find out the options that were available for a project like this. I decided to do a complete Willys/Chevy Chassis Conversion. The end result of this project will give me the Classic Willys Truck with a completely updated Driveline. All the major systems will be upgraded, suchas the repowering, power brakes, power Steering, upgraded suspension and handling, better reliability, and provides more power for highway speeds. I found a Chevy Donor Truck that met my requirements and had the same wheelbase as my Willys Truck. Once I found the perfect donor truck, I took the Body off the Donor Chassis. I got the chassis all cleaned up and painted. The Chevy Donor Truck Chassis had a straight front axle and a fuel injected 350 Chevy Motor. I then took the Willys Body off the original chassis. I spent a fair amount of time measuring for the best Willys Body placement on it’s new chassis. The repower project had NO Firewall modifications or chassis modifications required at all.
Cooling was a major concern for me, so I took the original Willys Radiator to the radiator shop and had them redesign a new core to meet all the current requirements for the TBI Chevy 350 V-8 Motor. The new radiator included a three row core and they changed the in and outlets to match up with the Chevy. I also installed a High Performance Electric “Pusher” Fan that are commonly used in Street Rods. I fabricated a metal mounting bracket for it to eliminate having to use the cheap plastic ties that usually fail. The trucks first major maiden voyage was this Forum’s Willys Moab Rally last May. The temperatures on the Poison Spider Trail that my party ran on Sunday got up to 107 and the truck ran cool all day long.
You can get all the details of my build from Floyd’s Build Log at:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3805815/1957-willys-pickup/
Here are some pictures of the installed Motor and the truck.

7311 7312 7314 7315

Also, here is Pete’s Video from last year’s Willys Moab Rally of all of us going up Long Canyon/Pucker Pass. Floyd goes up at 1:18 on the video. You can get an idea of how Floyd runs and sounds from this video. I hope that this collection of information helps the next folks that want to repower their Old Willys Trucks. Good luck to all that venture this route and remember that there are a lot of us on this Forum that have done this project. Use us all for a resource if you have any questions about doing a repower project on your Willys Trucks. Pivnic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wX85uUvpcjo

scramboleer
04-24-2013, 03:55 PM
Has anyone ever used the Buick/Rover V8? I always wondered if they'd be a good swap - power and torque of a V8, but due to their small size and lightweight aluminum as to not overpower the rear end, cooling, etc.

Jones
04-24-2013, 04:22 PM
This is great! So much good info here! It is interesting to see the variety of approaches to re-powering a Willys.

Are there any real off beat swaps out there, like a Toyota 22re? Mercruiser? Nissan, Mitsubishi (etc) Diesel?

I know at lest one person out there has done a 300 CI Ford straight six swap, which is a real tough one to do, if Im not mistaken.
Id love to hear how that worked out, with all that low-RPM grunt on tap.

beewhisper1
04-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Like the hell out of this thread. Could any of you that did the 4.3 conversion tell me/us about your MPG and the drive train used to get it?
Chet

tjs68
04-25-2013, 03:21 PM
In my experience the 4.3 (262 V-6) is a gas hog. Brand new it was and probably always will be. The Buick V-6's seem to be about the best for gas mileage out there. The Chevy Blazer's, Ford Explorer's, Dodge Durango's, all seem to suck when it comes to gas mileage. The V-8's seem to get better gas mileage, even in the new trucks.

I have often wondered about installing a Front Wheel drive Buick V-6 drivetrain in a Willys truck. You could even go with an all wheel drive like they have in the Buick Rendevoux. The all wheel drive will drink more gas, but it would keep the 4x4 status !

elminero67
04-25-2013, 08:41 PM
There are alot of good clean swaps on this thread-most of the old Willys swaps I have seen have been, well, butchered...
Mine is somewhere in between as I do not have a well equipped shop or tons of experience, but wanted it to be reliable and affordable:
I went with a Nissan sd22 diesel. Faster than stock, but still slow, but it does get 35 mpgs and hauls a pretty good load of firewood.

Jones
04-25-2013, 11:55 PM
In my experience the 4.3 (262 V-6) is a gas hog...The V-8's seem to get better gas mileage, even in the new trucks

From what I've seen, in their stock applications, the GM fuel injected v6s are a couple MPG better than the v8s, but it isn't a huge difference. In engine swap situations, as far as I can tell they get about the same: right about 16 - 18 mpg, tops, with the v8s having the power and torque advantage. Still hoping to hear from some more individuals out there who have actually done these swaps to get their input. Nothing tops real world experience.


I went with a Nissan sd22 diesel. Faster than stock, but still slow, but it does get 35 mpgs and hauls a pretty good load of firewood.

I can promise you that, even if it isn't the cleanest of engine swaps, there are A LOT of people who would like to hear more about how you built this one. For example, did you use the Nissan trans and transfer case too or adapt it to the stock 3 speed?

elminero67
04-26-2013, 09:47 AM
I can promise you that, even if it isn't the cleanest of engine swaps, there are A LOT of people who would like to hear more about how you built this one. For example, did you use the Nissan trans and transfer case too or adapt it to the stock 3 speed?

As I mentioned, it certainly isnt as clean as some of the other swaps in this thread, but it works: I kept the Nissan 5-speed and divorced transfer case along with the wiring harness from the Nissan diesel. Besides the motor mounts and driveshafts, the largest modification was to swap the radiator intake/return lines so they matched.

If I werent going the diesel route, I would love to do a flathead ford.

Jones
04-26-2013, 10:56 AM
As I mentioned, it certainly isnt as clean as some of the other swaps in this thread, but it works...If I werent going the diesel route, I would love to do a flathead ford.

Wow, from what I can see in the picture you posted, it looks like an excellent swap! Nice going, and thanks for posting some details about it. I'm assuming the engine and trans came from a 90's Nissan pickup?

As far as the flathead swap goes, there is a guy around here who has an 8BA swapped in...actually looks pretty authentic in a Willys, but seems to me that is putting an engine that tends to run too hot in an engine bay that doesn't cool well. I'll have to ask him about it next time I see him.

Ill post pictures if I can get some.

Jones
04-30-2013, 10:44 AM
The Mopar Underground Willys Wagon - one of the best looking Willys projects I've seen in a while, and the one that really got me thinking about swapping in a 4.0l six...that and the fact that running Jeep Cherokee parts cars are plentiful and very cheap around here.

Since this was actually a full on frame swap, it is a little outside of what we were discussing on this thread, however the article in JP magazine does mention that there were some trans tunnel/firewall mods that had to be made, but as you'll see in the photos, the swap looks like a good fit and the interior looks very stock.

7401740274037404

Sparky Powers
05-01-2013, 12:31 PM
I would like to first say that it is amazing to see the creativity and mechanical know how of those who have done or who have a engine conversion in their Willys it's great to see. Nice work and thanks for sharing.

When I dug my wagon out of the dirt, literally, it had no engine, the PO had previously converted it to a sbc. The PO had also hammered the crap out of the firewall to get clearance for the distributor then decided that it would be easier to just cut a hole in the firewall. It was a pretty poor canvas to start with but I seen some beauty in it somehow.

Since then I have installed a 2007 GM 5.3 with only 3 miles on it that I purchased from a GM dismantle yard. The transmission is a 4L60e out of the same vehicle, transfercase is a Dana 300 with a LowMax 4:1 gear set. The axles are Dana 44 with Detroit lockers and 4:11 gears running 33" tires. The radiator is an all aluminum 1 core (1" tubes) with a ECM controlled 2700rpm electric fan with shroud. I custom built my air intake and exhaust which I had ceramic coated to help keep my feet cooler. My engine originally didn't run very well with the generic PCM flash that most companies use, I don't know why it worked for most and not for me. So I drove the Willys over to Shelby America and the guys from Wicked HP programmed the PCM on the chassis Dyno to get everything to work together perfectly. She puts 300hp to the rear wheels and was still building horsepower when the governor kicked in.

So far I have just over 1000 miles on it since the tune I am averaging 25+ mpg's on the highway fully loaded with gear, misc parts and fluids. The engine hasn't overheated even in 110+ degree days the transmission did get a little warm one trip where we were doing a very long, very steep crawl up a mountain over in Death Valley last summer.

The only thing I don't like about my setup is the drive-by-wire. For those who may not know what that means is there is no throttle cable, the throttle body opens and closes via the PCM. The wiring that GM uses is very small, close to the size of sewing thread and it is one of the longest wires in the engine harness. It is a VERY common problem for the wires to break or be damaged and you will never know. The worst part I think is that you cant MacGuyver the throttle body to get you home if the wires fail. I know this cuz it has happened to me, 100 plus miles from home out in the desert. :mad:

I know some people say "BS" on my fuel mileage that I am reporting so we will be documenting my fuel economy on the trip to and from the Moab Rally from Las Vegas. So stay tuned for the final result. :)

Steve

Pivnic
05-01-2013, 12:42 PM
Nice Wagon Steve. Sounds like the "Tune" was a good investment with great results! See ya in Moab. Pivnic

Jones
05-01-2013, 01:22 PM
I would like to first say that it is amazing to see the creativity and mechanical know how of those who have done or who have a engine conversion in their Willys it's great to see. Nice work and thanks for sharing.

When I dug my wagon out of the dirt, literally, it had no engine, the PO had previously converted it to a sbc. The PO had also hammered the crap out of the firewall to get clearance for the distributor then decided that it would be easier to just cut a hole in the firewall. It was a pretty poor canvas to start with but I seen some beauty in it somehow.

Since then I have installed a 2007 GM 5.3 with only 3 miles on it that I purchased from a GM dismantle yard. The transmission is a 4L60e out of the same vehicle, transfercase is a Dana 300 with a LowMax 4:1 gear set. The axles are Dana 44 with Detroit lockers and 4:11 gears running 33" tires.

So far I have just over 1000 miles on it since the tune I am averaging 25+ mpg's on the highway fully loaded with gear, misc parts and fluids...I know some people say "BS" on my fuel mileage that I am reporting so we will be documenting my fuel economy on the trip to and from the Moab Rally from Las Vegas. So stay tuned for the final result. :)

Steve

WOW!!!!! Highly impressive, and that kind of MPG in a truck with the aerodynamics of a tool shed and with 33" tires is one hell of an accomplishment. Congrats on such a well engineered re-power. And with such low miles on that engine, it is very conceivable that you may even get slightly improved numbers in the future as it breaks in more.

I think the information you shared here is EXACTLY what many, many people out there are trying to find. Thanks for posting your experiences with your swap.

ARLEN
05-02-2013, 04:18 AM
I find it hard to understand why so many of you want to fool with a computer run set-up. After owning several cars with them I would never want to make a new one.The sensors never last because they are Mexican Junk; the computer chip is designed to run at a certain weight,speed, etc., that isn't going to be the same as the car you put it in, & if you ever change anything like rear end gears or tire size you are going to have to get a new chip. The fuel delivery system is extremely delicate and must have continual care. Go Mechanical like the JEEP was to begin with.It will save a lot of future headaches.

beewhisper1
05-02-2013, 07:09 AM
I find it hard to understand why so many of you want to fool with a computer run set-up. After owning several cars with them I would never want to make a new one.The sensors never last because they are Mexican Junk; the computer chip is designed to run at a certain weight,speed, etc., that isn't going to be the same as the car you put it in, & if you ever change anything like rear end gears or tire size you are going to have to get a new chip. The fuel delivery system is extremely delicate and must have continual care. Go Mechanical like the JEEP was to begin with.It will save a lot of future headaches.

Your Carb suggestion for a SBC daily driver seeking the best fuel economy? Or hell, your setup suggestion for a daily driver SBC seeking fuel economy?

willys way
05-02-2013, 07:46 AM
Although I admire Sparkys build because I think it's top notch and very impressive I'm with Arlen. If I wanted something thats computer operated I would buy new. I prefer Willys because of the simplicity of it. There is nothing I can't do to repair it myself with some good tools. A well tuned carberated engine in a willys should be in the high teens for gas mileage. A computer controlled injected engine will bring more. I will pay a lil more to drive my Willys but it won't break down and leave me sitting in the boonies with no way to repair.

Pivnic
05-02-2013, 10:37 AM
I find it hard to understand why so many of you want to fool with a computer run set-up. Go Mechanical like the JEEP was to begin with.It will save a lot of future headaches.

If all you're looking for is better mileage and never planning to drive your vehicle off road, carburetors will work for you. However, Carburetors Don't Work when the vehicle is at extreme angles either Up, Down or Sideways as are typical on many Mountain Off road Trails. IF your vehicle is stuck and can't run in these extreme positions because the carburetor's Float don't know what to do when it's "upside down", no amount a "Fixing" on the trail is gonna get you running again unless someone else with a hook pulls you out of there. THAT"S WHY many off road vehicles go with Fuel Injected Motors, as they don't have this problem! To have Fuel Injection, you must run with an ECU (Brain) to operate it. AGAIN, if the ECU setup is installed properly, it should work just fine. The most modern ECUs can be Tuned however you want them. I have not had any problems with any of my fuel injected vehicles. Why do you think most all new vehicles are Fuel Injected? It's because they are very reliable and THEY RUN GOOD. I would imagine that most Willys Repower Projects would be upgraded to run with Fuel Injection. Even NASCAR has finally switched to Fuel Injection. Do More Research on Fuel Injection, "It's what's Happening Now"... Get with it. Pivnic

Jones
05-02-2013, 11:24 AM
Although I admire Sparkys build because I think it's top notch and very impressive I'm with Arlen...I prefer Willys because of the simplicity of it. There is nothing I can't do to repair it myself with some good tools. A well tuned carberated engine in a willys should be in the high teens for gas mileage.

Willy's Way, if you don't mind me saying, your truck is an excellent example of how a well-thought out carberated v8 can work very well and bring good MPG, too.

And you make an excellent point about the simplicity of a Willys being part of its attraction, as I have to say I am in that camp as well.

When I repower my Willys pickup, it will probably be with a carberated straight six just because I love the absolute simplicity, durabilty and low RPM torque those suckers have. Plus to my ear, that is the "right" sound for an old Willys. But I am a traditionalist. I'd probably go with bone stock drivetrain if I wasn't going to spend so much driving time with this truck.

But I started this thread to demonstrate the different approaches and options available to engine swaps out there, and was hoping to see the entire gamut, and Steve and Pivnic's swaps certainly show the higher tech alternatives. Personally, I like to be able to fix things with needle nose pliers and a screwdriver if I have to.

Jones
05-02-2013, 11:38 AM
Your Carb suggestion for a SBC daily driver seeking the best fuel economy? Or hell, your setup suggestion for a daily driver SBC seeking fuel economy?

Run a small 4bb carb on a good-quality aftermarket dual plane intake that has relatively small runners and is designed for torque over all-out horsepower. If you are running an electric fuel pump, consider an adjustable fuel pressure regulator as too much pressure will just push un-used fuel past the needles and make the carb run unnecessarily rich, killing performance and mpg, and making the engine run like crap in general.

Also, running something like a Pertronix electronic ignition will help improve MPG some without over complicating matters. Use a high flow, nonrestrictive air intake system and exhaust, but always avoid overkill. If you run headers, keep them smaller diameter...same with exhaust tubing after - you want flow, but keep in mind smaller tubes have a higher flow velocity than larger ones (up to a point), and therefor exhaust scavenging is more effective...again, up to a point. Just dont go smaller than about 2" per side for duals, and a little larger than that for 2 into 1 (which makes better torque than duals).

Of course, critical aspects here is what trans is being used, gearing, tire diameter, and how heavy of a foot you have, but you asked about intakes for mpg, so Ill stop here.

You should be able to get very good results with a 450 to 650 cfm 4bbl if the rest of the equation is also right.

hotrodbob
05-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Fuel injection is not all that complicated when you take the time to really look at it. Street rodders have gone for it over the past 20 years with great success. There are many simple kits available to add EFI to most engines. Yes, it is more expensive, but carbs are getting expensive as well.

I will be switching to an EFI system for mine when I can afford it and I plan to use all factory parts and a simple aftermarket wire harness. I have a 302 Ford in mine and there are many kits to do this..

flatfenderruben
05-02-2013, 04:23 PM
Here is my setup. I have a chevy 350 with a 700r4 tranny and a New Process 208. With 4:88 rear end and 35' tires I am tacking about 2100 at 65 miles an hour. It is a spring over and it has taken me over 10 years to get it together. I bouth this truck for $200.00 and last week I took it to an offroad show in Ventura California. At the end of the show this guy stopped my and said he would offer me $40,000.00 for it!! He =was gpoing to buy his son a Rubicon but his son wanted my truck insted. I told him no and when I told my wife she told me i should have. It still is not done yet, as I still have to do the upolstery and some more odds and ends. The motor is just a bare bone stock crate motor 290 horse power and it runs great! had to install an aluminum radiator but I didn't have to smash up the firewall, it all went in like a glove. This motor is just prettied up with matching paint and hugger headers but thats about it. The carb is a Holly truck avenger and i also installed a vintage air Air Conditioning.

hotrodbob
05-02-2013, 04:47 PM
Here is my setup. I have a chevy 350 with a 700r4 tranny and a New Process 208. With 4:88 rear end and 35' tires I am tacking about 2100 at 65 miles an hour. It is a spring over and it has taken me over 10 years to get it together. I bouth this truck for $200.00 and last week I took it to an offroad show in Ventura California. At the end of the show this guy stopped my and said he would offer me $40,000.00 for it!! He =was gpoing to buy his son a Rubicon but his son wanted my truck insted. I told him no and when I told my wife she told me i should have. It still is not done yet, as I still have to do the upolstery and some more odds and ends. The motor is just a bare bone stock crate motor 290 horse power and it runs great! had to install an aluminum radiator but I didn't have to smash up the firewall, it all went in like a glove. This motor is just prettied up with matching paint and hugger headers but thats about it. The carb is a Holly truck avenger and i also installed a vintage air Air Conditioning.

How about some exterior pics?

Sparky Powers
05-02-2013, 05:58 PM
I find it hard to understand why so many of you want to fool with a computer run set-up. After owning several cars with them I would never want to make a new one.The sensors never last because they are Mexican Junk; the computer chip is designed to run at a certain weight,speed, etc., that isn't going to be the same as the car you put it in, & if you ever change anything like rear end gears or tire size you are going to have to get a new chip. The fuel delivery system is extremely delicate and must have continual care. Go Mechanical like the JEEP was to begin with.It will save a lot of future headaches.

I've never been a fan of computers especially the automotive variety which left me a little hesitant on doing this conversion. I decided to tackle it because I wanted good fuel economy with good all-around power not to mention I live in an area where we regularly travel in areas that go from below sea level to over 12,000 above sea level in just a few hours. Then throw-in 110+ degree ambient air temp into the mix. Obviously carbureted engines can do this but more often than not they have troubles (usually at high elevations). I mostly wanted to do this conversion because I'm not very good at properly adjusting a carb and I wanted a challenge.

I think that the automobiles of the 80's and 90' gave fuel injection a bad name with their complexity and poor design. Today fuel injection engines are very bare bones, simple and easily programmable. There are fewer sensors, almost no vacuum lines anymore and the PCM/ECM are fully programmable making them great options for conversions. The PCM/ECM's are fully programmable or tunable via your laptop or home computer. You can change every parameter of your engine and transmission with the stroke of a key, changing tire size, gear ratio, when to turn the fuel pump or electric fans on and off, change the transmission shift points as well as gain more horsepower etc.

Today's fuel injected engines are light years ahead of the decades past engines and also have been proven to go 200-300k miles between rebuilds with normal use and maintenance.

There is good and bad in any man made device as we all have experienced. I'm extremely happy with the efi conversions that I have done and I wanted to take some time to share what I know and like about them. Like I said previously I love the see the mechanical know how, creativity and the fact that those on this forum happily share this with others here.

Enjoy the ride,
Steve

hotrodbob
05-02-2013, 06:17 PM
Steve, which system have you used?

Pete
05-02-2013, 07:12 PM
Here's the '01 5.3L that will be going into Joseph's wagon...

http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6112&d=1361203029

We will be asking Steve lots of questions I'm sure... :cheers: In the mean time, it's still strapped to the pallet.

Pete

JEEPaul
05-02-2013, 09:29 PM
I'm another one with a Ford 250ci straight six in my pickup. It originally would have had a 6-226. (sorry, no pictures on this computer to post).

Here in Australia it's a fairly common conversion in the pickup - not that we have too many of these vehicles.

My pickup has the pre-crossflow head; Ford Australia produced a crossflow straight six from the late 70's which would also fit. It's a popular import for the Mustang guys in the US. Available in an EFI version too.

I have an adapter that joins the ford falcon bellhousing to the T90. The actual engine mounts are a little dodgy - I'm considering modifying this if I stick with this engine.

Definitely needs an overdrive to make the most of the extra power though - and 3000rpm at 50mph = POOOOOR economy!

Jones
05-03-2013, 12:49 PM
I'm another one with a Ford 250ci straight six in my pickup. It originally would have had a 6-226...Definitely needs an overdrive to make the most of the extra power though - and 3000rpm at 50mph = POOOOOR economy!

How do you like the power characteristics of this engine with your truck? Does it feel well matched to you?

Johnny Mac
05-03-2013, 05:47 PM
I've been involved in the carburetor vs. fuel injection debate since i got started in the car building hobby. I don't think there is really any argument that a fuel injected V8 will get a LOT better gas mileage and consistent performance than a similar engine equipped with a carburetor. Early "airbox" designs were extremely trouble prone. Even engines up through the 90's had problems as Steve pointed out. Now that the technology has fully matured a computerized, fuel injected is extremely trouble free. For example, most baja trophy trucks are fuel injected. Can't get any harsher duty than that! We built one for the Best in the Desert 2012 race for a buddy of mine. An LS7 powered monster! The engine and ECM were flawless. Not a hiccup, even with the ECM's backplane cooling fins packed with dirt and sand. Every #$@*thing else broke, but the engine was great!
Having said all that, my 61 Corvette has a high flow Holly four banger on it. Mostly for nostalgia though. It looks right. On the other hand, we just got finished putting another LS7 into a Chevelle. That looked pretty good too! So is one better than the other? Maybe, but there are still plenty of applications for the "old school".

Cheers!
Johnny Mac

Oh and Pete, you might try PCM Performance for the ECM programming and replacement harness if you don't want to use the old harness. Less than $700 for everything. Less than $250 for just programming. Good guys and they do everything. I would suggest keeping the front O2 sensors. They are the main feedback for the air/fuel ratio portion of the program. It will run OK without them, but you get a MUCH better fuel map with them. They're only about $30 each. I'm welding threaded fittings into the tubes just after the header collectors.

Sparky Powers
05-04-2013, 02:10 AM
Steve, which system have you used?

I have done two GM 5.3's conversions from start to finish and have help on another. This makes me no expert by any means but I do enjoy what I have learned.

On the way home from attending last years Moab Willys Rally my wife tells me "I want a Willys of my own, but smaller". :o We ended up buying a 1968 CJ5 from a friend who threw in a 1990 GM 4.3. Now this is a fuel injection engine that I don't know if I want to tackle as a conversion unless we decide to completely remove the GM fuel delivery system and use a FAST, Holley, Edelbrock etc system. Not that there is anything wrong with it I just have a lot of homework to do before we start this one, EFI or carburetor.

Steve

BTW, my wife TOLD me that as soon as we come back from the Moab Rally this year that I have to start on her CJ so that it will be ready to go to Moab next year.

ARLEN
05-04-2013, 03:32 AM
Most of the examples you guys are giving for off-road racing or let's even say Drag Racing is totally different than everyday driving and 80 thousand mile durability. In comparing Computer set-ups to mechanical, as far as long term durability and expense, there is no comparison. A mechanical system will last much longer and be a lot less expensive to repair.
When you mention the Racing examples, you are not mentioning that they don't keep the same engine for years. Everything on that engine is replaced every time they race it, including the sensors and fuel injectors.
Aluminum Heads were created so at the drag strip you could shave 1/100th of a second off your quarter mile time. But on an everyday car they are a nightmare waiting to happen. First time your engine overheats a little, boom.
Most of the Sensors y'all are using go bad within 5000 miles. Especially the sensors in the exhaust pipes that tell the computer your air fuel mixture and how much gas the throttle body should send to the engine.When that happens the gas saving goes out the window.
So if you plan on replacing everything every year like the Racers do , we can say Computer is better than mechanical.

JEEPaul
05-04-2013, 06:44 AM
How do you like the power characteristics of this engine with your truck? Does it feel well matched to you?

I'm reasonably happy with the setup, but have never driven any other willys so do not have anything to compare it with! It still feels and drives very 'truck like'. I would imagine it's a slight improvement on the original 6-226. I don't have the exact figures on me but from memory the power and torque figures are up in the order of 20 or 30% - certainly not going to break any speed records but does the job. And parts for this engine in Australia are readily available (unlike the 6-226!!)

Certainly needs a warn or saturn overdrive on the highway though to get the full benefit of the extra grunt.. and my diff ratio is already a reasonable 4.1:1.

I often think about the silly idea of ditching the T90 manual for a C4 auto - I think that would compliment the straight six nicely.

I'll endeavour to get a few photos of the engine bay posted.

JEEPaul
05-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Here's my Ford 250ci straight six in the pickup..

willys way
05-05-2013, 07:47 PM
That's a tuff little engine. I think that one has 7 main bearings. You must have got a deal on those extra long spark plug wires. What year is the body? How's the fire wall? Different years have different fire walls.

Pivnic
05-05-2013, 07:55 PM
I'm seeing that there is some misinformation being posted on this thread about Fuel Injection. I already said my piece on fuel injection and I'm not going to comment further on the subject. All I can suggest is, Do Your Research either way you go. If you want to go the carburetor route, knock yourself out and do what ever you want to do. There's a reason why almost ALL of today's vehicles are fuel injected. Pivnic

Sparky Powers
05-06-2013, 12:15 AM
I'm seeing that there is some misinformation being posted on this thread about Fuel Injection. I already said my piece on fuel injection and I'm not going to comment further on the subject. All I can suggest is, Do Your Research either way you go. If you want to go the carburetor route, knock yourself out and do what ever you want to do. There's a reason why almost ALL of today's vehicles are fuel injected. Pivnic

X2, Thank you Piv.

I was under the impression that this thread was started to show the different conversion options that many Willys owners have done, details of how it was performed and what the pro's and con's each may have encountered. So I decided to share my conversion with others in hopes to help those who wish to go EFI and/or point out the obstacles that others may not want to be challenged with.

Somehow I feel that this has become a debate of which is better and I don't think that is what "Jones" was wanting when he started this thread. Thank you to those of you that have shared your conversions with us, enlightening us and for keeping another Willys alive and running. I look forward to seeing other peoples conversions. Keep them coming.


Sorry Jones. Thanks for listening to my rant,
Steve

Jones
05-06-2013, 12:32 PM
X2, Thank you Piv.

I was under the impression that this thread was started to show the different conversion options that many Willys owners have done, details of how it was performed and what the pro's and con's each may have encountered...
Somehow I feel that this has become a debate of which is better and I don't think that is what "Jones" was wanting when he started this thread...

Sorry Jones. Thanks for listening to my rant,
Steve

Steve, you're absolutely right about what my intentions where with starting this thread. Although I am personally an old school tech kind of guy, I think it is useful to have a thread that shows the amazing range of options out there for re-powering a Willys, how well those options work, and what challenges need to be overcome for a successful swap. I recognize that it is the nature of forums such as this for people to debate some, but I really hoped for this thread to become a resource for those who were trying to figure out what engine and drive train to use for a swap, or if they even wanted to do a swap at all.

To that end, my appreciation goes out to everyone who has contributed info to this thread. I hope we can keep it going as I know there is much more information to be shared out there. Keeping in mind that there are a number of ways people use their Willys trucks, having a range of options is important. And yes, without a doubt, fuel injection is the way to go for serious 'wheeling and crawling, without a doubt, will return the best MPG, power and torque results when sorted out right, and can be totally bullet-proof and trouble free. And carbs can be an amazing pain in the ass. And I am speaking from personal experience even though I will probably go old-school with my next engine swap.

Thanks guys!

JEEPaul
05-07-2013, 04:53 AM
That's a tuff little engine. I think that one has 7 main bearings. You must have got a deal on those extra long spark plug wires. What year is the body? How's the fire wall? Different years have different fire walls.

I'm confident the body is a 1957 - the numbers on the compliance plate indicate this, and the rear window, grill, diffs, dash, and original 6-226 chassis mount brackets also indicate 57 is about right.

No mods to the firewall or front crossmember were made - it's a snug fit, but fits nonetheless. If I modify the dodgy engine mount setup I should be able to get a little more clearance from the firewall.

Yeah, those plug leads - the distributor is a breaker-less type from a later model crossflow head 250 engine - the plugs are on the other side of this type of engine! I'll need to make up some leads myself to tidy it up.

Jones
05-07-2013, 12:18 PM
While researching all this, I have found this kind of info very helpful. Maybe others will too: SIX BANGERS Stock Willys 226: HP115 @ 3650 rpm, torque 190 lb·ft 1400 rpm Amc Jeep 258: HP 112 @3200, torque 210@2000 jeep 4.0l HP 180@4750, torque 220@4000 ford 250: HP 120 @ 4400, Torque 190@2400 Ford 300 ci/4.9 HP 150 @ 3400, torque 265 @ 2000 Chevy 4.3l V6: Hp 200 @ 400, Torque, 260ft.lbs @ 2800rpm V8 GM 283 HP 150 @ 4400 RPM, Torque 245 @ 2400 RPM (stock, 2bbl carb) GM 5.3l Vortec HP 250-350 @ 4600, TOrque 430-450 lb-ft @ 2800 RPM (depending on engine's original application) Ford 302 5.0l HP 200-250 @ 4,600, Torque 300 lb·ft @ 2,600 rpm (with 2bbl and 4bbl carbs, not fuel injection) (Disclaimer: I have no idea how truly accurate these statistics are, I just copied and pasted them from various Wikipedia info pages)

Jones
05-07-2013, 12:19 PM
^ sorry that is such a mess, I had that tabbed out into a chart, but it obviously didn't keep it's format when I posted it here.

Hope you guys can read that.

Auggie
05-07-2013, 12:59 PM
While researching all this, I have found this kind of info very helpful. Maybe others will too:

SIX BANGERS
- Stock Willys 226: HP115 @ 3650 rpm, torque 190 lb·ft 1400 rpm
- Amc Jeep 258: HP 112 @3200, torque 210@2000
- jeep 4.0l: HP 180@4750, torque 220@4000
- ford 250: HP 120 @ 4400, Torque 190@2400
- Ford 300 ci/4.9: HP 150 @ 3400, torque 265 @ 2000
- Chevy 4.3l V6: Hp 200 @ 400, Torque, 260ft.lbs @ 2800rpm

V8
- GM 283 HP 150 @ 4400 RPM, Torque 245 @ 2400 RPM (stock, 2bbl carb)
- GM 5.3l Vortec: HP 250-350 @ 4600, TOrque 430-450 lb-ft @ 2800 RPM (depending on engine's original application)
- Ford 302 5.0l: HP 200-250 @ 4,600, Torque 300 lb·ft @ 2,600 rpm (with 2bbl and 4bbl carbs, not fuel injection)

(Disclaimer: I have no idea how truly accurate these statistics are, I just copied and pasted them from various Wikipedia info pages)


edited for readability.

Johnny Mac
05-07-2013, 08:12 PM
And no matter which way you go, I highly recommend the new second generation engine mounts from Novak! I've never done such an easy install as this build. Thanks to whomever turned me onto them!
Cheers!
Johnny Mac

Jones
05-07-2013, 10:41 PM
edited for readability.

Bryce, thanks for doing that I appreciate it...and hopefully it will be of help to others here on this forum.

And also, it's cool to see how many Old Willys guys are also on the Jalopy Journal. My daily driver is a very traditional '40 Ford pickup that was 'rodded back in the early '50s.

I think many of us have a mutual appreciation of traditional rods and Willys trucks.

- Jones

JEEPaul
05-08-2013, 02:58 AM
While researching all this, I have found this kind of info very helpful. Maybe others will too: SIX BANGERS Stock Willys 226: HP115 @ 3650 rpm, torque 190 lb·ft 1400 rpm Amc Jeep 258: HP 112 @3200, torque 210@2000 jeep 4.0l HP 180@4750, torque 220@4000 ford 250: HP 120 @ 4400, Torque 190@2400 Ford 300 ci/4.9 HP 150 @ 3400, torque 265 @ 2000 Chevy 4.3l V6: Hp 200 @ 400, Torque, 260ft.lbs @ 2800rpm V8 GM 283 HP 150 @ 4400 RPM, Torque 245 @ 2400 RPM (stock, 2bbl carb) GM 5.3l Vortec HP 250-350 @ 4600, TOrque 430-450 lb-ft @ 2800 RPM (depending on engine's original application) Ford 302 5.0l HP 200-250 @ 4,600, Torque 300 lb·ft @ 2,600 rpm (with 2bbl and 4bbl carbs, not fuel injection) (Disclaimer: I have no idea how truly accurate these statistics are, I just copied and pasted them from various Wikipedia info pages)

The stock "Aussie" Ford 250 six pre-crossflow (the one in my pickup): 156 HP, 240 lb-ft!! Although I'm not sure mine is pumping out those figures at the moment!

Auggie
05-08-2013, 07:38 AM
Bryce, thanks for doing that I appreciate it...and hopefully it will be of help to others here on this forum.

And also, it's cool to see how many Old Willys guys are also on the Jalopy Journal. My daily driver is a very traditional '40 Ford pickup that was 'rodded back in the early '50s.

I think many of us have a mutual appreciation of traditional rods and Willys trucks.

- Jones

not a problem. its good to see other hamb-ers. i didnt actually know there where a lot here. any other really cool engine swaps out there?

oruna1
05-08-2013, 12:19 PM
327 chevy in my truck.

Johnny Mac
05-08-2013, 05:19 PM
That looks really good Ron. Where did you get your radiator?
Cheers!
Johnny Mac

oruna1
05-08-2013, 05:53 PM
GriffinThermal Products 1-55202-TS radiator¼” npt fittings for the trans cooler, (gates 25484 flex upper hose, 71710 dayco lower moulded 1994-1996 ford bronco trimmed to fit, f-150, f-250 with 5.0 engine) with a Spal 30101516 16" fan mounted on a griffin shroud

dahreno
05-08-2013, 08:18 PM
There is no better way to go than a Griffin radiator and a Spal fan ! That is pretty much what all the off road racers use ! Not cheap though !

hotroded
05-13-2013, 12:05 PM
here is my sbc in my sedan delv. it runs good has a turbo 350 tranny and a 59corvette rear
just replaced the radiator with a 89 bronco v6 from advance auto 433557

Jinx
05-30-2013, 04:06 PM
I'm in the process of putting an "880" casting 5.7 Liter "Vortec" motor into my '59 truck right now. I'm just using the T90 for now with an adapter my uncle had laying around but I'll upgrade to a SM465 later if/when I have issues. The SBC fit into my truck like a glove. I did have to use the smaller breaker points style distributor so that I didn't have to mess with the firewall but that was my only issue on that front. That gives me about an inch of clearance. I installed a Pertronix ignitor II kit in the distributor instead of using points. As you can see, I'm also using the carbureted manifold and an Edelbrock 650 AVS "off road" carb.

On key feature is that I bought a Zip's water pump riser from Speedwaymotors. Guys have been using these on '32 ford street rods and things for years. This raises the fan up by about 5-1/2" so that it will line up nicely with the stock radiator position and I won't have to use an electric fan. I've got a 15" fan on there now but could probably go a little bigger if I redid the shroud.

I can post some more pictures later but this is the only one I have at the moment.

http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7829&d=1369928458

You can see that with the riser (and even a 1-1/2" fan spacer) and where the distributor is sitting the firewall shape and the front cross member shape make this engine look like it was born here.

jnichols
06-02-2013, 01:59 AM
Here is the current state of my '54. '76 Mercedes 2.4 liter diesel and manual trans. to a divorced dana 20 t-case. Massaged the firewall a bit to make valve adjustment easier. Astro van power steering box. Pieced together junkyard a/c.

Jinx
06-02-2013, 08:45 AM
Here is the current state of my '54. '76 Mercedes 2.4 liter diesel and manual trans. to a divorced dana 20 t-case. Massaged the firewall a bit to make valve adjustment easier. Astro van power steering box. Pieced together junkyard a/c.
What pitman arm did you use? Also, did you change the front crossmember? I'm about to do the astro box myself and any info would be appreciated.

jnichols
06-02-2013, 12:05 PM
I removed the crossmember and made a new removable one further forward under the core support that also is the back of the winch mount. The pittman arm came out of a pile I have of old steering boxes. it has almost no drop and fit the factory tie rod that I used to make the draglink. It may be off of an old AMC hornet that I took apart for the engine years ago. Some more pictures on my old build thread,

http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/showthread.php?82-The-build-has-begun&highlight=build+begun

Jones
06-02-2013, 01:02 PM
Here is the current state of my '54. '76 Mercedes 2.4 liter diesel and manual trans. to a divorced dana 20 t-case. Massaged the firewall a bit to make valve adjustment easier. Astro van power steering box. Pieced together junkyard a/c.

Talk about innovative! What a cool idea for a swap.

Would you comment some on how you like the driveability of this combination? Does the engine seem like a good match for a 3400 lb 4x4 truck? Does the torque of that engine work well offroad? How does it do on road?

Thanks in advance...this one has me especially interested.

jnichols
06-02-2013, 09:52 PM
Talk about innovative! What a cool idea for a swap.

Would you comment some on how you like the driveability of this combination? Does the engine seem like a good match for a 3400 lb 4x4 truck? Does the torque of that engine work well offroad? How does it do on road?

Thanks in advance...this one has me especially interested.

I don't know yet. Those are recent pictures. The car it came out of weighed 3500 lbs and got 38 mpg. I want a high mileage camping cruiser not a burly off roader, I have other vehicles for that. The horsepower and torque figures compared to the original f head. 240D OM616 (european version) 64 gross hp at 4200 rpms ,101 ft/lbs at 2400 rpms, f head 62 gross hp at 4000 rpms 102 ft/lbs at 2100 rpms

mathman
06-03-2013, 12:00 AM
f head 62 gross hp at 4000 rpms 102 ft/lbs at 2100 rpms

Those numbers are for the L-head. The F-head came in at 75 hp. :)

jnichols
06-03-2013, 03:25 AM
Those numbers are for the L-head. The F-head came in at 75 hp. :)

You are correct I meant to say net hp and torque not gross. http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Photos/Engineering/F4DynoGraph.gif

Jinx
06-03-2013, 11:21 AM
I removed the crossmember and made a new removable one further forward under the core support that also is the back of the winch mount. The pittman arm came out of a pile I have of old steering boxes. it has almost no drop and fit the factory tie rod that I used to make the draglink. It may be off of an old AMC hornet that I took apart for the engine years ago. Some more pictures on my old build thread,

http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/showthread.php?82-The-build-has-begun&highlight=build+begun

Thanks! I see; I thought the front end looked a little strange. I THINK I can fit my astro box in there without removing the crossmember, or worst case making a reinforced relief cut just so I can scoot the nose of the box about 3" forward. Depending on how it ends up being mounted I will need a standard to long length pitman arm. I had one laying about out of an older Chevy and it didn't seem to match up to the splines on my box quite right.

Jinx
06-26-2013, 02:02 AM
Well, I decided to wait on putting in the power steering for now. I didn't really want to waste more of the summer by adding to my list of things to do. I'll do it later along with other stuff that is currently on the back burner. I want to enjoy my truck a little before winter! So, my Willys took it's first drive around the "country" block with it's new powerplant last Friday! I was really hoping to get it done before I left for Taiwan which is where I'm at as I post this. By the time I come back it should have had it's timing done professionally and a carb tune. It still needs tailpipes as well, currently the exhaust stops after the mufflers under the bed.

I have to say that so far, I have almost nothing but good things to say about using the Zip's water pump riser. My only issue was that I had to trim just a little of the aluminum casting on the Zip's riser to fit with my Edlebrock intake manifold but it wasn't a big deal.

In any case, the Zip's unit allowed me to use a 15" (which is really a little over 15.5") mechanical fan. It's a 6 bladed aluminum "racing" fan that I picked up from Speedway. I ended up using a 180 degree thermostat and I am using the original Willys radiator with a 7 psi cap. We did modify the original fan shroud to more closely fit this fan as it was hitting a bit on the passenger side and was far away on the driver side. We simply welded on some new arcs of sheet metal on the drivers side and cut a little out on the passenger side. If you hold some "smoke" about 2 inches away from the front of the grill, it will get sucked right in.

We let the engine warm up and then preceded to drive it around 6 or 7 miles. On one hill the engine temperature went up to about 185 degrees but that was as hot as it got. Also, when we finished driving it we let it idle for a good 10 minutes. It stayed under 180 for that entire time. The ambient temperature was in the low to mid 80's and it was pretty humid so I'm thinking this combo will work good in the future.

I'll keep you guys updated but so far I definitely recommend this product for those of you who swap in a Chevy small block and either have problems with bad cooling with an electric fan or just want to use a mechanical fan.

gpzkat
06-27-2013, 11:23 PM
Mine has 350 GM crate motor with TH400 and NP208. I didn't do the install, previous owner did. Uses a pretty small distributor cap, no cut to firewall. Has Edelbrock intake and 750cfm 4 bbl (a bit of overkill perhaps) plus headers and 2.5" exhaust. Previous owner evidently had a lot of green paint leftover, hence the alternator being painted (wtf).

I've added radiator and electric fan, plus trans cooler, but need to fab a shroud. It doesn't overheat but I haven't tried with AC on hot day since hooking it all up.

Overall very nice & peppy, and very good manners, but I wouldn't mind a 4th gear. I have 3.55 ratio in the diffs and with 215/85x16 tires, RPM is around 2600 (calculated). Good enough, it'll go faster than I ever need it to.

MPG is about 12-15.

I credit previous owner for coming up with a combination that feels very right in the Willys, and doing a first rate execution of it all. I like the V8 feel, power, sound, and it suits the truck well.

81588159

Dr Dave
09-12-2013, 08:11 PM
88748875hee hee hee!

Jones
09-13-2013, 04:55 PM
^^^^ Ok, you have my curiosity up big time. What is that? A Toyota engine with a hemi valve cover? Whatever that 4 banger is, Id love to know how well it works in a 3000lb Willys, and other details - what trans and transfer case are you mating up to that? What is driveability like?

Thanks in advance!

Jones
09-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Mine has 350 GM crate motor with TH400 and NP208...MPG is about 12-15...I credit previous owner for coming up with a combination that feels very right in the Willys, and doing a first rate execution of it all. I like the V8 feel, power, sound, and it suits the truck well.

81588159


Thanks for the info on this combination. Really sounds very well sorted. Im impressed with the MPG considering the size of the carb and the TH400 auto trans, which is a super tough trans but not particularly efficient. Thanks for the info!

Dr Dave
09-14-2013, 07:50 AM
Actually it's a 1981 Mitsubishi Astron 80 with a Weber carb and a Hemi valve cover on a hinge to access the oil fill hole. The entire chass from the 1981 Plymouth Arrow pickup is under the truck. The engine had to be moved back 13" to clear Willys radiator shroud. The Plymouth radiator bolted into place by bending a 3/4" flange on each side of shroud. The truck has all the accessories from the Arrow power brakes, steering, auto trans. (904a Mopar) and a/c. it is a pleasure to drive! Stops on a dime gets 28 mpg and runs highway speeds all day long sometimes it even gets to 190 degrees on a 180 degree stat when we run the a/c in stop and go traffic. Needless to say we LOVE it.8888have build pics if interested...oh yeah those full length runningboards are a construction 'c' perling with tractor supply trailer fenders in the rear...lol!

Jones
09-14-2013, 12:57 PM
Dave, that is some definite "out of the box" thinking! And the running board/rear fender combo looks factory - very impressed.
I was interested to hear how that little 4 banger did with the weight of that Willys body on there, but it sounds like you really like it - and can't say anything negative about 28 mpg cruising freeway speeds (not something the stock setup would ever be able to deliver), let alone having AC in Texas!

Nice! Thanks for posting!

Jones
09-14-2013, 01:01 PM
Anyone out there have pictures/details about doing a Jeep 4.0 or 258 ci six swap?
I've seen that clean, green wagon that was in the magazines last summer, but that was a custom shop working with a huge budget.

Also, I keep hearing about how a truck cab and bed is almost a bolt on for a Gladiator j10 frame. Anyone have any info on that? I figure its as much fabrication as any other swap.

Dr Dave
09-14-2013, 06:17 PM
Jones thanks for the thumbs up...the performance is not like v8 but with smaller tires on the rear it scoots real good. the big tires help the look and gas mileage the jeep body with flat bed on the mitsu chassis weighs in at 1330 front 1250 rear for a total of 2580 (according to the cat scales) the almost balanced ratio makes it handle real nice. The first one of these frame swaps I did I installed a 383 stroker chev with a 700r4. it was a little nose heavy and I had Coil Spring Specialities build me some special springs based on axel weight. They are a great company and talked me thru the 'how to figure out what I needed' stage. That little truck was a hit everywhere we took it. It even got featured on the Mother's Car Show tv show during the 2007 Power Tour (episode 266 10/4/07). We were thrilled to see a Willys on the tube!

mikec4193
09-15-2013, 06:29 PM
Dr Dave

You are my hero....
Oh my gosh....28 MPG's with and it runs on the freeway too!!!...YooHoo that is awesome...you wanna build me one next???
Oh yeah...that patina is pretty cool too...thanks for sharing

Actually it's a 1981 Mitsubishi Astron 80 with a Weber carb and a Hemi valve cover on a hinge to access the oil fill hole. The entire chass from the 1981 Plymouth Arrow pickup is under the truck. The engine had to be moved back 13" to clear Willys radiator shroud. The Plymouth radiator bolted into place by bending a 3/4" flange on each side of shroud. The truck has all the accessories from the Arrow power brakes, steering, auto trans. (904a Mopar) and a/c. it is a pleasure to drive! Stops on a dime gets 28 mpg and runs highway speeds all day long sometimes it even gets to 190 degrees on a 180 degree stat when we run the a/c in stop and go traffic. Needless to say we LOVE it.8888have build pics if interested...oh yeah those full length runningboards are a construction 'c' perling with tractor supply trailer fenders in the rear...lol!

Jones
09-16-2013, 01:31 PM
I have to say that so far, I have almost nothing but good things to say about using the Zip's water pump riser. My only issue was that I had to trim just a little of the aluminum casting on the Zip's riser to fit with my Edlebrock intake manifold but it wasn't a big deal.

In any case, the Zip's unit allowed me to use a 15" I ended up using a 180 degree thermostat and I am using the original Willys radiator with a 7 psi cap. We did modify the original fan shroud to more closely fit this fan as it was hitting a bit on the passenger side and was far away on the driver side...The ambient temperature was in the low to mid 80's and it was pretty humid so I'm thinking this combo will work good in the future.

I'll keep you guys updated but so far I definitely recommend this product for those of you who swap in a Chevy small block and either have problems with bad cooling with an electric fan or just want to use a mechanical fan.

Great info for the many, many folks out there running SBCs out there - thanks for the contribution

Jones
09-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Jones thanks for the thumbs up...the performance is not like v8 but with smaller tires on the rear it scoots real good. the big tires help the look and gas mileage the jeep body with flat bed on the mitsu chassis weighs in at 1330 front 1250 rear for a total of 2580 (according to the cat scales) the almost balanced ratio makes it handle real nice. The first one of these frame swaps I did I installed a 383 stroker chev with a 700r4. it was a little nose heavy and I had Coil Spring Specialities build me some special springs based on axel weight. They are a great company and talked me thru the 'how to figure out what I needed' stage. That little truck was a hit everywhere we took it. It even got featured on the Mother's Car Show tv show during the 2007 Power Tour (episode 266 10/4/07). We were thrilled to see a Willys on the tube!

Wow, going from a 383 stroker to a low torque 4 banger had to be quite an adjustment, but it sounds like a very usable, practical combo for a daily driver. Im assuming that is a two wheel drive that you're working on now? Looks great!

Also, congrats on all the success with your previous build too; pretty cool you had it featured! Keep up the great work, Dr. Dave!

willys way
09-16-2013, 08:10 PM
At least it looks american.... :)

n2ojunki
10-22-2013, 06:27 PM
Has anyone done one with 302 aod ford transfercase? I need to go with an automatic due to a injury. I would like to know about firewall mods. I can use a 54? small back window? cly. cab or a 60 6 cyl cab.

Ken P
10-22-2013, 08:00 PM
I'll be swapping a 5.0 / 302 but early plans are with a 302 truck bellhousing to a T-19 with a Novak adapter to the original Dana 20 transfer case.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/transmission/transmission_packages/t18_package.htm

I had made some measurements years ago based on a 289 with a top loader 4 speed. I don't remember exact dimensions now but I know I gained clearance on both the back side and front of the engine.

What I'd like to see more of in this thread are engine mounts and any frame reinforcing for strength.

n2ojunki
10-22-2013, 09:06 PM
Thanks I need to do some repairs to floor anyways so maybe ill get lucky. Ya frame mounts would be great to look at to get a idea what to do.

willys way
10-23-2013, 08:33 AM
Look here to see pics of a 302 in a 48. Nice fit and plenty of power for a truck that weighs 3250. http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/album.php?albumid=18

Ken P
10-23-2013, 11:28 AM
Look here to see pics of a 302 in a 48. Nice fit and plenty of power for a truck that weighs 3250. http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/album.php?albumid=18

Thanks I was wondering about header clearance. Did you fab the engine mounts or were they supplied by a company as a kit? I was looking at Novaks stuff last night.

willys way
10-23-2013, 11:57 AM
I bought a motor mount kit but Im not sure from where. It mighta been Novacks or someplace out west. They are adjustable up, down, left and right.The headers are block hugger from Summit. I used the newer small starter for good clearance. The bell housing and clutch assembly is 70's truck with an adapter to the T-90 that I bought off ebay. Everything fit well with no firewall or trans tunnel modifications. I got the aluminum Tru cool radiator from Summit on sale for 139.00 and it cools well with no fan shroud on the hottest days with a load up hill. I did cut the inner grille back for the radiator because my grille had the long tunnel for the original 4 cyl engine.

Jones
10-30-2013, 01:27 AM
Tom, I have to say, your rig is one of my favorites on this forum, and you are one hell of a great resource of info...or at least you have been for me, and I thank you for it. Im surprised I dont see more 289/302 swaps.

willys way
10-30-2013, 07:24 PM
Thanks Terry. I like the 289/302, it's not a gas hog like the bigger V-8's, it fits well with plenty of room and it's 100 lbs lighter than a 350. My 302 has plenty of power in my 3,250 lb truck. It woulda been a high winded 289 if I had one at the time. The same motor that was used in the little cobra's.

fj80fornow
10-30-2013, 09:24 PM
Look here to see pics of a 302 in a 48. Nice fit and plenty of power for a truck that weighs 3250. http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/album.php?albumid=18

If anyone is interested, I ended up with a bell housing adapter to adapt a 302 to the stock t-90 tranny. I am keeping my engine stock, and won't be using this. Located in Denver, CO.

61zep
10-30-2013, 10:23 PM
Great thread! I put a 2005 4.0 in my 55 Wagon. I removed the original motor mounts off the frame and built a set that used the stock 4.0 ones. I have a Borg Warner T18 4speed mated to a Dana 20 case with Spicer 18 guts in it. I also removed the original trans crossmember and narrowed the tubular one and moved it forward to be the new trans crossmember. Also put in a hydroboost out of an Astro van and had to build new clutch linkage. It had a 170 Studibaker in it when I got it. I also have a wagon frame with a 250 Chev 6 in it and 2 pickups. One with a small block Ford adapted to the stock T90 and the other with a 235 Chev adapted to the T90. None are on the road so I can't give details on driving. I will post pics if I can later. Jim (61zep)

Jones
10-31-2013, 01:34 AM
Great thread! I put a 2005 4.0 in my 55 Wagon...I also have a wagon frame with a 250 Chev 6 in it and 2 pickups. One with a small block Ford adapted to the stock T90 and the other with a 235 Chev adapted to the T90. None are on the road so I can't give details on driving. I will post pics if I can later. Jim (61zep)

Hey Jim, by 4.0 do you mean a jeep 4.0 straight six? Im very interested in that swap myself, as a Jeep 258 or 4.0 is at the top of my list of swap options (my firewall and floor have already been cut by the previous owner for a Pontiac 389 transplant, so Im not worried about mods at this point). I really like the low end torque characteristics of straight sixes, so when you do get yours on the road, I would like to hear your observations of how well it works. Pictures would be great too - Terry

Jones
10-31-2013, 01:55 AM
Answering my own questions - sort of - here is a great article about putting a Willys wagon body on a TJ Jeep Unlimited chassis - evidently the 4.0 was a little tight, but fit ok

http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/suv/163_1212_1962_willys_wagon_first_drive/

61zep
10-31-2013, 10:10 PM
Hey Jim, by 4.0 do you mean a jeep 4.0 straight six? Im very interested in that swap myself, as a Jeep 258 or 4.0 is at the top of my list of swap options (my firewall and floor have already been cut by the previous owner for a Pontiac 389 transplant, so Im not worried about mods at this point). I really like the low end torque characteristics of straight sixes, so when you do get yours on the road, I would like to hear your observations of how well it works. Pictures would be great too - Terry
Yes, a Jeep 4.0. It will be a while before I get it on the road. right now it is a rolling chassis but I need to change the front end gears and install the front springs along with a list of small things to do. I will try to post pics soon. Jim (61zep)

Ikoshy
08-19-2014, 12:58 AM
Can any of the v-6's, 225 cu in., 231, or the 252, be coupled with the 1982-91 S-10 5 spd tranny? What adapters or bell housings, or components would be needed to install this setup in my 1953 2WD wagon. Also what rear end would work withe this as well. I've heard that the Jeep V6 was a dog as far as fuel economy. I travel a lot and want to get it down the road at a decent clip, with decent fuel mileage. I was thinking about a GM 4.3 L, but don't know too much as far as reliability and mileage on that engine as well. Whatcha think???

Oliver Hevvy
08-21-2014, 07:30 PM
Small-block Chevy. Zillions of them out there, inexpensive, you can buy parts anywhere, and parts are very affordable, due to enormous volume. They fit easily, and can be built mild for stock drive trains or wild if you want. Can't beat it, no how. 4.3 liter V6? Why not get all 8 cylinders? No more work or cost.

ChrisR
08-21-2014, 08:43 PM
Same goes for the Ford 289's. They stuck them in Mustangs and Broncos (and maybe more) so I can get parts for mine anywhere.

beewhisper1
08-22-2014, 06:11 AM
"4.3 liter V6? Why not get all 8 cylinders? No more work or cost. " I'm going to go with the 4.3 , presently, due to its lesser weight(about 200 pounds I think), better fuel economy and smaller size in the engine bay. I add "presently" because it has peculularitys when mating to a manual transmission. I could be swayed tho, given a better deal ($) on a 5.0-ish SBC.
My 00.02
Chet

joberrick
08-22-2014, 10:37 AM
Great thread here... I've swapped out my 230OHC/3Spd back in the late 70s for a Ford 302/C4 auto/D18 and loved it for many years... logged well over 50K miles of hard 4 wheeling as well as long road trips (should add that I have 3.54 gearing) with it before parking the rig in a barn (yep, got married)... I'm in the process of restoring it now and am thinking of bolting in a Ford 351 Windsor in place of the 302... will give me a little more power and should be bolt in. Anyway, I will say, the Ford SB fits like it belongs in the engine bay and has the distributor in the front of the engine. That was the main reason I picked the Ford over the Chevy engine back in the very beginning... my 2 cents...

beewhisper1
08-22-2014, 01:49 PM
Absolutely agree on the greatness of this forum and your choice of a SBF/302. If I wasn't such a cheap b******, or I had someone close to me to sway me toward the 302, I'd pick that motor. There are a couple of you Ford advocates on this web (had em before and own one now BTW) that point out its lightness and narrowness when compared to the SBC. Also the availability issue doesn't help, when one goes looking for a SBF there are a lot less hits on CL compared to the SBC. So I'll take this as a sign and maybe bite the bullet on getting another adapter ($$$) for SBF route.
Thanks for the input,
Chet
Great thread here... I've swapped out my 230OHC/3Spd back in the late 70s for a Ford 302/C4 auto/D18 and loved it for many years... logged well over 50K miles of hard 4 wheeling as well as long road trips (should add that I have 3.54 gearing) with it before parking the rig in a barn (yep, got married)... I'm in the process of restoring it now and am thinking of bolting in a Ford 351 Windsor in place of the 302... will give me a little more power and should be bolt in. Anyway, I will say, the Ford SB fits like it belongs in the engine bay and has the distributor in the front of the engine. That was the main reason I picked the Ford over the Chevy engine back in the very beginning... my 2 cents...

Oliver Hevvy
08-22-2014, 03:40 PM
Newish 4.3 liter V6s are probably more common. When did Chevy quit building 305s?

Anyway, the elderly 283 in my Willys has plenty of room. It is obviously not wider, and while it is longer, I've still got plenty of room for an electric fan. This pic isn't great, but I will post a better one after I put the rad back in. It looks a little messy cuz I was in the middle of a wiring upgrade when I took the pic.

15167

beewhisper1
08-22-2014, 05:02 PM
There are a fair amount of 4.3's available in my area, but since I've got a T-15 I'll need to go thru the flywheel matching etc that one doesn't have to do with a V-8 SBC. I looked into the 305, and if you can sort thru the Brand bashing, it seems that the 305 holds less favor than a 350. I'm not a die hard Ford vs GM, just looking for the best bang for the buck given the amount of work needed to get er done. End result is to get a DD.
Thanksagin for the info/feedback.
Chet
Newish 4.3 liter V6s are probably more common. When did Chevy quit building 305s?

Anyway, the elderly 283 in my Willys has plenty of room. It is obviously not wider, and while it is longer, I've still got plenty of room for an electric fan. This pic isn't great, but I will post a better one after I put the rad back in. It looks a little messy cuz I was in the middle of a wiring upgrade when I took the pic.

15167

Oliver Hevvy
08-22-2014, 05:22 PM
The 305 is a small bore, long stroke version of the SBC designed to meet smog. Power is adequate. I figured they might be cheaper than a 350 'cuz the hot-ridders prefer 350s to 305s.

Chevy also made a 307, which is a larger bore and shorter stroke than the 305, but they haven't made them in years. I'd look for a truck 350 with a four barrel. It will have a mild cam and so lots of low-end, and 4-bolt mains, which are a little more durable. You can rebuild one very cheaply. Get Dave Vizard's How to Rebuild You Small Block Chevy.

ARLEN
08-23-2014, 04:03 AM
The power you achieve comes from the heads you use and the cam. The 283 use to come with Power Point heads that had 59cc chambers. Also a steel crank. Later the 327 came with them and then GM went to the double Hump that had 64cc Chambers and larger 202 valves. I prefer the Power Points {Power Pak} to the Double Hump. I had the Power Points on a 355 SBC with a 280 Magnum cam that was really fast. It's the picture at the bottom. Smaller valves give you more power off the line.
The 307 was made between 1968-1973
15170



Key
Cast Marks
Cast Nos.
Description


A
Rectangle
460
‘55 & up 265/283 low comp (8:1) 1.72/1.50 valves


B
Narrow triangle over rectangle
520, 896
‘58 & up 283 PowerPak/’57-’60 Fuel Inj.,9.25:1 CR, 1.72/1.50 valves, 59cc chamber; could be good replacement on late 305 but no accessory bosses.


C
Vertical bar over rectangle
997
‘57 Corvette 270HP, 9.5:1 CR, chamber similar to PowerPak but with sharp corners in plug shroud area


D
2 vert bars over rect
997
‘56 Corvette 2X4 bbl, 283; ‘58 pass car FI; chamber same as ‘57 270HP Corvette


E, F
Large “camel humps”
291, 461, 461X, 462
Original hi-perf or “fuelie” heads; chamber sizes are 62-64cc; both 1.94/1.50 & 2.02/1.60 valve versions available; 291 on 327’s thr ‘68; 291 have temp sender hole; 462 don't


G
Left-facing right triangle
041
‘69-’70 350/300HP, accessory bolt holes, most have 1.94/1.50 valves


H
Small “camel humps”
186, 492
Later hi-perf or “fuelie” heads, some 186 (‘69 & later) & all 492 have accessory bolt holes; 1.94/1.50 or 2.02/1.60 valves; 64cc chambers; ‘70 LT1/Z28 use 492; avail as PN3987376

Oliver Hevvy
08-23-2014, 12:36 PM
Great post, Arlen!

As I recall, the double hump or camel heads, the humps are a little more rounded. It's a rough casting, so the corners aren't sharp.

There's plenty of stuff not he web about how to identify Chevy engines, heads, etc by casting numbers and other indicators.

There's also this book, in the original version: http://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-Your-Small-block-Chevy/dp/B000X53A36/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1408814944&sr=8-3&keywords=how+to+rebuild+your+small-block+chevy+book+by+david+vizard

It has a current edition, too: http://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-Your-Small-Block-Chevy/dp/1557880298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408815301&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+rebuild+your+small-block+chevy+book+by+david+vizard

And no, I'm not getting a commission. They're just good books!

Oliver Hevvy
08-23-2014, 12:48 PM
One other thing to look for in junkyard motors are the later so-called "emissions" head. I couldn't find a picture, but maybe I can describe it. See the lower (outer) edge of the cylinder head on the bottom. The edge is mostly straight. This is probably a "good" head. The bad heads are "Scalloped" along this edge, and in general the casting has been trimmed everywhere to reduce weight.

In the top pic, you can see the valves. The surface they seat on is flat, sort of. Bad head have a raised area where the valve seats, or to put it the other way they "cut" the metal back to increase combustion chamber volume and reduce the compression ratio.


15171

martisan
08-23-2014, 03:40 PM
I am no SBC expert but I hear the Vortec heads are quite a bit better than any of the older ones, but maybe not as cool to tell your friends about.

Oliver Hevvy
08-23-2014, 03:54 PM
GM's Vortec design is better in several ways. The heads flow better, and they have "reverse cooling" which runs the cool water thru the heads first, then the block. It allows higher compression. Some have a "pancake" distributor mounted in between the timing cover and the water pump, which might simplify Willys installation.

But I've never worked on one. OTOH, the junkyards probably have way more of them that they do the old classic SBC, and they are available with FI and in smaller displacements, if you are concerned about fuel economy.

61zep
08-24-2014, 10:34 AM
Absolutely agree on the greatness of this forum and your choice of a SBF/302. If I wasn't such a cheap b******, or I had someone close to me to sway me toward the 302, I'd pick that motor. There are a couple of you Ford advocates on this web (had em before and own one now BTW) that point out its lightness and narrowness when compared to the SBC. Also the availability issue doesn't help, when one goes looking for a SBF there are a lot less hits on CL compared to the SBC. So I'll take this as a sign and maybe bite the bullet on getting another adapter ($$$) for SBF route.
Thanks for the input,
Chet

I have a sbf adapter if interested let me know. A couple of things on sbf. 1 make sure to get all the front hardware (pulleys, alternator bracket, ps bracket, etc.) as there were many changes and finding the right combo later is a pain. 2 balance factor. there was a change about 1980 between 28oz and 50oz on the flywheel. The wrong one will give you bad vibes. 351 and 302 I think but am not sure have different balance factors. Jim Ford

61zep
08-24-2014, 10:52 AM
GM's Vortec design is better in several ways. The heads flow better, and they have "reverse cooling" which runs the cool water thru the heads first, then the block. It allows higher compression. Some have a "pancake" distributor mounted in between the timing cover and the water pump, which might simplify Willys installation.

But I've never worked on one. OTOH, the junkyards probably have way more of them that they do the old classic SBC, and they are available with FI and in smaller displacements, if you are concerned about fuel economy.

I build street rods for a living and have used that engine. The engine referenced is actually an LT1. A couple of things to think about. The distributer in the front down low does not like water and the cooling system (reverse flow) is tempermental to get the air out of and can cook the engine before the temp gauge tells you it is hot. Getting the water to flow through the heater with the complicated bypass system is a pain also. They used this engine in corvettes but it only lasted a small number of years. If thinking about this engine do your research and check out the LT1 forum. Jim Ford

Oliver Hevvy
08-24-2014, 01:14 PM
I have a sbf adapter if interested let me know. A couple of things on sbf. 1 make sure to get all the front hardware (pulleys, alternator bracket, ps bracket, etc.) as there were many changes and finding the right combo later is a pain. 2 balance factor. there was a change about 1980 between 28oz and 50oz on the flywheel. The wrong one will give you bad vibes. 351 and 302 I think but am not sure have different balance factors. Jim Ford

That's my one gripe on Ford. They change _something_ every couple of years, just to make life difficult. In high school I had a '67 Mustang. It needed a replacement three-speed manual. Due to differences in little shit, like the depth of recess of various splines and stuff, other 67 Ford three speeds would not work, and 66 or 68 mustange three speeds wouldn't work. A real PITA unless you own your own wrecking yard.

beewhisper1
08-24-2014, 06:42 PM
Thanks Jim, if I can find a likely candidate, I'll drop you a line. Given the price and hassle of converting to a manual transmission, I may go with one of those 4L60 auto trans. they come with. In the long run,it does give better mpg and is an easier fit compared to going manual.
Chet

61zep
08-25-2014, 01:59 AM
Thanks Jim, if I can find a likely candidate, I'll drop you a line. Given the price and hassle of converting to a manual transmission, I may go with one of those 4L60 auto trans. they come with. In the long run,it does give better mpg and is an easier fit compared to going manual.
Chet


If it is a Ford auto trans I would think it was an AOD or an EAOD the latter being electronic control. 4L60 and 4L80 are GM trans. I prefer Borg-Warner T18 manual trans. Jim

ARLEN
08-25-2014, 02:52 AM
I bought a 4L60E for the 48 Delivery, but then I found out you have to buy a separate computer to shift it that costs $600.Plus they are not very durable.That's why GM went to the 4L80E.The 700R4 and the 2004R do not need a computer to shift. I changed direction and lowered my rear end gear selection to a 3.64 and bought a B&M turbo 400.

Jinx
08-28-2014, 10:33 AM
Well, I'm finally selling my 350 swapped truck, so if anyone doesn't want to go through the trouble and just buy mine, there yah go. LOL
http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/showthread.php?6181-1959-Willys-Truck


Next Willys, I'm doing an LS swap. (I think I eluded to that a while ago in this thread.)

I just finished an LS1 swap into my 69 camaro and I'll never bother with an SBC or carbureted vehicle again. Everything about the LS is better. With long tube headers, a cold air intake and a tune I've got over 400 horsepower and with my T56 in the camaro I'm getting 21mpg AVERAGE even though I have 4.11 gears. I'm totally sold now.

61zep
08-28-2014, 07:52 PM
I am a Ford guy (can't help it that is my last name) but I will admit that the LS1 is amazing in power and fuel economy. Jim Ford

ARLEN
08-29-2014, 03:49 AM
I just finished an LS1 swap into my 69 camaro and I'll never bother with an SBC or carbureted vehicle again.

I was wondering if you guys ever seen a TPI at the Drag Strip? One that didn't use Turbos.

Jinx
08-29-2014, 09:45 AM
I was wondering if you guys ever seen a TPI at the Drag Strip? One that didn't use Turbos.
I've never actually been to a drag strip! I've been to a strip club though. :cheers:

BTW, TPI? Are you thinking about LT1's instead of LS1's?

Jinx
08-29-2014, 09:51 AM
I am a Ford guy (can't help it that is my last name) but I will admit that the LS1 is amazing in power and fuel economy. Jim Ford
I like 'em all Jim. I even like Fords with Chevy engines. Fox body mustangs with LSx's are pretty fast I hear. I like 30's fords, late 60's fastback Mustags and I love the late 60's, early 70's Ford F100's. On the Chevy side of things I also like the 30's cars, Late 60's muscle/pony cars and the same year range of C10 Pickups as Fords.

I like foreign crap too...LOL

I'm a "non-denominational" car buyer.

If the Coyote engines weren't' so darn huge with their overhead cams, they'd be getting stuck in a lot of other vehicles as well. Beyond the fact that they are efficient and make power easily, that's the biggest draw of the LSx engines. They're compact with the push-rod design and can be jammed into just about anything.

61zep
08-29-2014, 10:23 AM
I like a lot of different cars and trucks too, just tired of seeing the same combo in nearly every street rod that comes through the shop. Small block Chevy, turbo 350, 9"Ford, Mustang II front. Some people have no imagination. We are putting a Lincoln Mark VIII 4.6 DOHC engine in a 61 T-bird. Jim

Blindmelon
08-29-2014, 10:46 AM
Not sure if anyone has interest in putting a 258 Jeep engine in a truck.. Here's one photo.. I used the engine, trans and
transfer case from a 1983 Jeep.. With a lowered front crossmember and added rear crossmember the engine fit..No
firewall or tunnel mods required.. The power is quite adequate for my needs.. The drive train noise is zero.. I have
lots more photos of the work in progress and finished installation... If anyone wants to see.15239

Just double click on this image to enlarge it.....

Blindmelon
08-29-2014, 03:01 PM
And...........When I purchased my truck a few years ago, it had a 1965, Rambler 196 OHV installed. It is a very
compact six cylinder.. They were available with one or two barrel carburetors..

The negatives for this engine:

1965 was the last year made
It takes a bit of machine work to hook it up to a T90 trans
The front crossmember will have to be lowered about 4"
These engines are not plentiful, cheap or easy to find in good condition

The positive things:
Torque monster, it has a small bore and huge stoke
It is compact
Installation does not require cutting up the firewall.
These engines are tough and smooth running.

Mine was spaced forward from the trans 9/16" by using a steel spacer plate between the trans and
bell housing.. The trans input bearing retainer will need to be spaced out the same amount (9/16")
to retain crank to trans centering..

My engine was apparently purchased as a crate motor and installed in 1965... Rambler sold quite a
few of these leftover, out of production engines in 1965 and 1966..

See attached photo.15241

BruceR
08-29-2014, 04:30 PM
I like to see different drive train options. Thanks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

61zep
08-30-2014, 09:23 AM
Not sure if anyone has interest in putting a 258 Jeep engine in a truck.. Here's one photo.. I used the engine, trans and
transfer case from a 1983 Jeep.. With a lowered front crossmember and added rear crossmember the engine fit..No
firewall or tunnel mods required.. The power is quite adequate for my needs.. The drive train noise is zero.. I have
lots more photos of the work in progress and finished installation... If anyone wants to see.15239

Just double click on this image to enlarge it.....

Yes more pics would be cool. Jim

Blindmelon
08-30-2014, 10:42 AM
15282Hello Jim,

Yesterday, I posted some photos of the repower in my photo album.. I was hoping to just
pull them off this site and repost them on this page....Looks like I need to use photo bucket
again....Man, that process is ponderous.......I have yet to take photos of the motor mounts
and added cross member.. I left the original crossmember (trans/TC mount) in place and
cut a clearance pocket for the front drive shaft.. I "married" a 4" channel iron to the factory
cross member, to the rear of it. The trans mount bolts to the channel iron. I also fabbed
a torque reaction bar and it mount to the TC on the front output casting bolts. This is on
the right side of the TC.. This bar is then connected via a link and rubbers to a stub running
to the rear, off the factory cross member. There was no room to use the Jeep (1983) torque
reaction bar on the left side.. It all fits pretty well and doesn't look all butched up. My biggest
surprise on this repower was the cost of shortening and lengthening my drive shafts...Man,
that was $700... Oh, and that was because most of my original drive shaft components were worn completely out...

When looking at the installed Jeep engine, you may notice an electrical device on the top
rear of the valve cover.. This is an air temp sensor. It turns the fan on between 85 and 95
degrees F.. It was cheap $6. It is reliable. It allowed me to avoid lots of pipe adapters to
use the 3/8" water temp sensor I was previously using.. The back of the cylinder head has
only a 1/8" pipe hole.. So, I am using an air temp sensor instead of a water temp sensor.
When I get some time. I'll post more photos. I really like having an inline OHV six in the
engine bay.. It just feels right to me.. And you know, if there was just a bit more space
I would have tried that Buick straight eight I've had my eye on...But that's a whole different
can of worms.....

OK, I just added a photo with the engine in place, the battery box removed and the old
plastic valve cover still on the engine...Look at the space between the cylinder head and
the firewall......See.........Lucky me, I measured twice and it fit.........

Oliver Hevvy
08-30-2014, 12:23 PM
Wow, it fit w/o cutting the firewall? I guess the problem with the SBC conversion is that you either have to cut the firewall, or move the tranny forward and get different length driveshafts. Thanks for the pic. There must be plenty of Jeep 258s in junkyards, in a lot of other AMC as well as Jeeps...

Jinx
08-30-2014, 03:38 PM
Wow, it fit w/o cutting the firewall? I guess the problem with the SBC conversion is that you either have to cut the firewall, or move the tranny forward and get different length driveshafts. Thanks for the pic. There must be plenty of Jeep 258s in junkyards, in a lot of other AMC as well as Jeeps...

Cutting the firewall isn't necessary on all SBC conversions. Wagons and trucks that came after the 226 was introduced have enough space. I think the firewall was changed a bit to fit the 226. You just need to use an older style points distributor (can change the guts to electronic) as the later HEI units are too big in diameter.

If you look back a few pages or at my truck in the classified section, you can see that it fit like a glove. No firewall or drive shaft modifications.

ARLEN
08-31-2014, 03:06 AM
I had just enough room for my HEI distributor. and I didn't cut the firewall. If the engine mounts had been welded just a 1/4" more forward I could have used any distributor I wanted to. I switched to a low profile cap and made removing the distributor much easier. But then again how often are you really going to take the distributor completely out. There are more than one choice for cramped engine compartments.
152871528615288

Ken P
08-31-2014, 08:55 AM
My wagon will be getting a spare 93 5.0 that I've had sitting around for a while. It's only about a 10,000 mile engine so there is plenty of life left in it. I'd always wanted some kind of hot rod like a 32 or 40 Ford but know I'll never getting around to building much less affording one to buy. I'm trying to do more with stuff I already have and not having to go out and buy something else. So I'm going to repower the wagon to satisfy that urge. I own several Mustangs that are fairly to extremely rare and need to be left as original so there is no playing with them.

The wagon will be the 5.0 with the full Cobra engine kit and a 4 speed with overdrive. I've also mentioned before that I have the complete generator set up from a 64.5 D code 289 Mustang engine. I hope to be able to use it. It will look sorta period correct and will make it much easier since the wiring will be a direct swap. I'll have to modify the carb and clutch linkages but that should be about it.

There are plenty of sources for motor mounts, trans adapters etc. so I'll be making my decisions when I get to that point. It will look basically stock both inside and out with some chrome / powder coated parts and trim pieces. I'm also going with Herm's reverse power steering and the overdrive. Along with front discs and dual reservoir master cylinder conversions.

It will be black with blue window tint like a 57 Chevy I remember from when I was a kid. I always loved that combo so I figure what the heck...

Jones
09-08-2014, 05:07 PM
Not sure if anyone has interest in putting a 258 Jeep engine in a truck.. Here's one photo.. I used the engine, trans and
transfer case from a 1983 Jeep.. With a lowered front crossmember and added rear crossmember the engine fit..No
firewall or tunnel mods required.. The power is quite adequate for my needs.. The drive train noise is zero.. I have
lots more photos of the work in progress and finished installation... If anyone wants to see.15239

Just double click on this image to enlarge it.....

Hey Larry, this is one great looking engine swap! Actually, when I first started this thread a year or so back it was because I was thinking about doing exactly this swap (Jeep 4.2l/258 CI straight six engine/5 speed/transfer case) with my truck, and was hoping to get info from someone who had already "been there and done that".

Thanks for the pictures and info you included, but I have one question for you: doesn't the Jeep transfer case come out on the wrong side to mate up with the front diff? I know that is the case with my '90 YJ Wrangler vs my '51 pickup. If I am not mistaken, you still have your trucks stock axles...how did you handle this aspect of your drive train swap? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance - Terry

PhxJim
09-08-2014, 07:52 PM
15375

I looked back and I never shared, don't know how I missed it.

15376


Sent from my iPad

Blindmelon
09-08-2014, 08:20 PM
15397Terry,

My swap used a 1983 engine, T5 trans and a Dana 300 transfer case. All of these
components came out of the same Jeep.. Dana 300's have a right side drive, just
like the Dana 18 and Dana 20. That was part of my decision to use it..
The drive shafts in a 4WD truck will need to be re-tubed. The front lengthened and
the rear shortened. Also, if you leave the original crossmember in place, you
will need to cut clearance for the front drive shaft. And the reaction bar that is part
of the trans mount must be deleted... I compensated for this by making a reaction
bar that mounts off the front of the TC on the right side. You will also need to purchase
a 90 degree speedo drive adapter for the transfer case.. The speedo drive on the
Dana 300 points to the floor board. If you don't use an angle adapter, you will be
snapping off the cable in regular intervals..

I drove my truck with a T90, Saturn overdrive and Dana 18 for 5 years.. It was fun
and the combo worked pretty good (not well, I hate the new English, Smokey THE
Bear, ha) ... The new combo is just excellent however.. And I really don't miss the
whine and smell of a Dana 18.

dahreno
09-09-2014, 12:10 AM
I had a 62 wagon that I installed a 2001 Jeep 4.0 H.O., AW4 auto, Dana 300, Dana 30 front diff. w/ discs, power steering and brakes, all from a donor Cherokee. Also had the digital dash and tilt wheel. I wish I could find a pic. of the dash.

61zep
09-09-2014, 09:49 AM
Here are some pics of a 2005 4.0, Borg Warner T18, Spicer 18, Scout II Dana 44 front, custom Dana 60 rear in a 55 Utility Wagon frame. Please excuse the moss I live in Washington and have not worked on it in over a year. Jim Ford